Development Blog

You could look at cheaper modeling options.

 

I'm guessing you went through a 3d model "shop" that does freelance 3d modeling for a rate probably around 60-120 an hour?

 

I would look towards Fiverr as an alternative choice. $3k for a model is kind of pricey considering what you could do to just pay 3d modeler to do it. It would require more management on your end. Probably a longer turn around as well.

 

The model does look very good though.

There seem to be artists willing to put stuff on the Workshop, and that would avoid the whole sunk cost completely.

 

Are you thinking of closing the paid Workshop completely? I'm just wondering if there are substantial maintenance costs there as well.

I can;t really convince artists to put their content in the Workshop if the sales aren't even worth filling out the tax forms for.

Yeah, I guess that's true. It just seems really strange how different the sales are for Workshop stuff vs. DLC. I imagine the other stuff must be doing worse?

DLC sales are very good. Workshop Store sales are very low.

I find this as good news. Don't be offended now but please continue on spending your time on the reason why we are here instead of making models. I mean the engine of course. I would like to see more engine development reports instead of sales reports. Get someone taking care of those things and do what you are best on. Making a good engine. Like it or not but that's my view on this

First thing I did after reading this was open up Steam and click the "Browse the Workshop" button for Leadwerks Game Engine then clicked the "Paid" section (which indicated 19 items) to see what was there, this is what I saw.

 

 

I had to go to leadwerks.com and click the Workshop button at the top to see paid items. I doubt this is the whole problem but for people who do not frequent the Leadwerks site/forum, paid items don't exist.

 

I think that the Workshop store is going to grow into something really awesome but it will probably be a slow build up because it is so far removed from the store page on Steam for Leadwerks Engine.

That confirms what I have heard in that people are relying on the Steam interface for the purchase portal. The Workshop interface is built into Leadwerks, but people seem accustomed to using the Steam interface to buy things.

 

This is something I don't quite understand, because you can't even install anything from the Steam Workshop interface, You have to use the built-in interface by default.

 

BTW, the top-selling Workshop items show up right on the Steam store page:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/251810

I think my first instinct to go through the Steam interface is because that is where I go to subscribe to items in the free workshop that's been around months. Like this http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=571199621

I clicked on the Workshop items on the store page and that was a store page I'd never seen. It'd be nice of that button was also on the screen within steam where you launch Leadwerks. Right now, there is Launch, View achievements, Find DLC, and Workshop buttons but no button for the Workshop Store. If I didn't know better, I'd assume that the Workshop and Workshop Store were the same thing.

I agree with what Roland said above. Spend your time working on the engine and adding features, the engine sells so its time/money worth spent

 

The Workshop Store will pick up at some point via the community.

 

Over the past few days 3 people here have agreed to start actively providing tutorial videos for a few subjects in regards to Leadwerks, hopefully the new skills people learn from these tutorials will start to drive new content onto the Workshop and possibly new games made with the engine.

 

I would say the majority of users can afford to spend time working on content that they would happily take a gamble on to distribute to the Workshop, for us it is only our time but for you its your money and time. Once that has kicked off and you start to see numbers go up on the Workshop then you can safely start to invest in custom content.

 

Although this isn't really a reliable source I do think its a better option. That's just my thoughts anyway. Just thought I would join in on the conversation

I would stick the Merc as a DLC for $11-$12. while keeping it on the workshop for $10 to drive people to the workshop that way.

DLC sales are very good. Workshop Store sales are very low.

 

I thin it's all "official" stuff vs "user" stuff. User stuff would take longer to take hold I think. Most people want "official" stuff.

What you need to do is put it in everyone's face who uses the engine. Have a splash screen pop up like Steam does when we start the engine that shows off the models and has a few pages when you click 'next' just like Steam. You need to advertise to your audience and the editor is the best way to do that. People aren't always looking for stuff, but when you put it in their face they will be more likely to buy something.

 

That confirms what I have heard in that people are relying on the Steam interface for the purchase portal. The Workshop interface is built into Leadwerks, but people seem accustomed to using the Steam interface to buy things.

 

They are doing this because you aren't shoving the workshop interface that's built into LE in their face. I have to click workshop menu to get there. Hell, I forget it's even there and when I remember I'm hesitant to click it because I don't want to page through so many models and waste 15 mins of my time.. You have to pop that stuff into our faces and in a better interface that shows just 10 or so that I can page through. There is so much stuff in there that it can be annoying to keep paging over and over, but if you randomly show some on start up eventually you'll hit something that catches someones eye and they'll buy it because it's easy. You aren't invasive enough with the workshop and your editor. All your customers open the editor. You have to take advantage of that.

 

Every time I open Steam I page through their splash screen to see what's there because I know it'll only take 1 min and there might be something I'm interested in. I also page through their main page because there are only a handful of things on there. Paging through ALL the games on steam is a giant pain and takes a lot of time so I rarely do that.

I agree with Roland, Josh. You should put your effort into further developing this wonderful engine.

 

However, I do understand your desire to improve asset side of LE games and I do think that workshop is the way.

 

However, there is also a programmatic side to the poor content quality of LE games comparing to other engines. For example, if there were no Shadmar, there would be quasi-zero post-processing effects for LE. What is more, you cannot control post-processing effects from the code easily, which goes against the philosophy of LE.

 

That said, I think that users would rather like to see PBR support in LE than a new action figure. Btw, a military action figure incites LE users to make utterly unoriginal and totally deja vu FPS games, but that is beside the point in this discussion.

 

Obviously, the workshop should do the work. Don't know exactly how... Maybe try with complete packs?

 

But let's not forget the programmatic side of making your games nice... More material shaders, more post processing effects, more CSG options and the likes... And let's not forget long standing bugs like Key::RButton or context drawing functions.

 

In my opinion, it's ten times more important to fix these bugs than to produce another drop of an action figure or a weapon in a sea saturated with every kind of boy's phantasies. Btw, I haven't seen any LE female user...

It'd be nice of Josh could focus on all the features/bug fixes that are important to me (because I'm the most special of course!) instead of models but those changes aren't free. The models in the Workshop Store could provide funding for engine and editor improvements.

 

Back on subject, I was thinking about this some more this morning. Building on what Rick was saying about a notification within the editor itself, have you thought about some kind of free "model/texture/sound/whatever of the week"? It could be a trashcan, new blood splatter, skin for crawler or something else that is cheap/simple. Hell, you could even hold a "competition" here in the forums, people could design a simple asset that would get featured in the store for the week (and a sticker of course). The purpose would be to get people used to getting content through the editor rather than Steam.

That's why I started with the free Workshop, a year in advance, to get people used to using it. I'm not sure how much simpler the browse / install process can be.

 

A button was added to the left-side bar to open the Workshop. I don't know how much more in-your-face it can be without being a nuisance.

 

At this point, we're paying the Steam tax, but not getting the increased sales the Steam platform normally yields. All my plans are based on the idea that Workshop Store sales will at least in the same ballpark as DLC sales.

A button was added to the left-side bar to open the Workshop.

 

I didn't even notice this. I just opened the editor and sure enough there is a little box there. First time I even saw it. Honestly, what you think may be obvious just might not be to some people. You have to be a little annoying to put things in people's faces or they just won't see it. In today's world if they have to click a button to open something, they are less likely to do so. There is a reason why Steam opens that window on startup. You have to punch people in the face with this stuff.

You sound like the guy from "se7en".

Just found it as well. Maybe a different icon would help, a shop or $ sign!

Interesting to see some figures on costs. I'm glad it was investigated as an option as it was a largley external thing so has not used to much dev time. However, most other software seems to allow the user base to produce content. The catch is attracting the market which needs a large user base. Difficult.

 

Can anything be learnt from GG and it's approach (hopefully you know which software I mean - I don't know if we're allowed to name names).

 

They seem to have a fair bit of content in their store which in the past was possible to import to LW through a (lengthy?) process.

 

I think the point about officlal DLC has some validity. I think people in general feel safer about that and expect it to be of high quality.

 

With regards the icon. When I clicked on it I didn't know what it was, I just wondered what the new button did.

 

I find the store a little awkward, maybe it's partly my connection but I find after clicking there are a number of seconds before anything seems to happen but no real screen indication that it is doing anything. Sometimes I feel a slight reluctance to use it just because it feels a bit clunky.

 

In my mind the in-game workshop/store *IS* the place to go to look for things, so it has achieved that. I'm not sure about the purchasing aspect though. I suppose it's early days.

Yeah, I think I need to just keep adding content and talking to people about this. I can't expect it to take off right away. I really appreciate the honest feedback.

I have always viewed the workshop as a place for community's to collaborate and share. I'm guessing it will take a good amount of time people to view it as a marketplace.

I feel the things that would probably sell are reusable generic content like game templates, shaders and possibly scripts. I think these are easier and quicker for existing skilled users to produce than complex animated models.

 

I think Josh may have already stated that models are preferred because they are stable.

 

I see the logic in this but from the point of view of sales I think the things people *are* probably looking for and would buy are probably game/project templates, shaders and maybe scripts. Models I think need to be easily to modify or extend (e.g. a base figure which can be changed) with props, retextured etc., or be a construction kit. Ideally models would not be tied to the engine though SHOULD provide features to make them work easily in the engine to encourage and help users along this easiest path.

 

I think I like the idea of curated items though I think ratings, review and a dedicated linked forum page for each item can help provide a level of user driven curation. Forum pages can give publishers a more wordy or visual arena to portray their items and detail updates etc.. Just a passing thought.

 

I think game templates in particular would sell quite well. If a user can see part of their vision in a game template then I think it's quite likely they may buy it. We don't want a masive amount of cookie cutter clones like U*I*Y but I would hope our user base is more interested in satisfying their own itch to develop something that works, rather than looking to flip assets for profit.

 

Having suggested paid for templates I also have to say that I am REALLY glad that there are free game templates with the product. I really think they are critical aids in the learning process to make sure you stick with the product enough to produce something you are happy with. I think it is also important that the whole user base has access to the same ones. So I think game templates would sell but I think we still need more free ones as well.

 

Maybe paid ones could fill the gap if that is how LeadWerks becomes more successful and users aren't upset they have to be paid for. The net gain may be positive if it helps more users get more successful projects out and get more users to the position where they expose LW favourably to the wider internet (blogs etc.).

I have always viewed the workshop as a place for community's to collaborate and share. I'm guessing it will take a good amount of time people to view it as a marketplace.

 

Agreed. I think community collaboration is a LW strength which as you say is reflected in the workshop.

 

 

While I suggested scripts, shaders and game templates might be paid for items I was thinking that if items were to be paid for then such are more easily produced by the internal community than items such as high end models.

 

On the one hand I like that the workshop is mostly free but on the other it would be nice to reward and encourage users that have clearly put in a lot of time to helping the community.