YouGroove

It was done in some engine that turned open source. Beeing open source people could pay for some feature, if the feature reached the goal it was developped. If i'm not wrong i seen that system on Esenthel forums. Personnaly i will stay with simple pay for a product/pay for the upgrade. The question is how much will you put to finally have a complete engine ? LE3 kickstarter is good, but be carefull, im' not sure that would be good to put all LE 3 features in such driven community money and goals , each of us wanting that feature and not that one. For example : -I don't need terrain or incomign render features for mobile. -I would need some mobile special features perhaps we will be one or ten guys only to ask, and we don't perhaps have 20$ to put on that. You see that system can put down features put in some Kickstarter way. But if the engine put terrain, mobile stuff all in some update, people wanting terrain will have to buy the upgrade, and people wanting only mobile will also have to buy the upgrade. So the upgrade will touch lot more people.

Hummm ... not all projects requires such amount of features. If some users have spare time appart from their game project and want to build some stuff, why not ? I played with some old open source engine having state machines, i really dind't like that caus i wanted my own states to work in the way i needed.; It can really depends on your proect type to need general or our onw states (some times more simple and easy to make)

Well lot of us put suggestions here. The problem is we don't know if they are taken account or approved. Could it be some system to show some suggestion would be approoved, so we could expect it in some near next incoming updates. For example today, i had to select multiple BPS pieces, and it was a nightmare , specially in the way LE3 selection works. Sometimes, suggestions are essential and missing incredibly, like : - Select multiple entities or BSP stuff by drawing a rectanlg or sphere Actually LE3 multiple selection in the editor is very messy. Like some "rotation gizmo" posted from LE3 beginning, but never appeared. I hope such important basic suggestions to not just sleep in this topic Perhaps like for bugs close the thread to say : "Ok this one we can put it in next update" Caus lot of suggestions just remains suggestions., i agree not all people will have what thye ask, but really : General suggestion for general interest of all users should really be taken account. I mean for exmple : "multiple selection by box", rotation Gizmo That two are not for my pleasure but in the interest of better interface for all. LE 3 is perhaps too much buzy with Linux, Steam, terrain, visual rendering system etc ...for putting that in place now ?

Seen that some days ago , Leadwerks is listed on supported platfrms on bottom of page : http://www.artificial-technology.com/index.php/# Will it be with LE3 ?

I think, it's businness change, LE 3 needed a good income to start, and finally it couldn't go under paid. I think giving same price for all people is not that bad, caus LE3 is a new product. With another known 3D engine like Unity, i didn't had nothing when the engine passed free for PC or mobile versions also. The only advantage i had was to have Unity in my PC and use it during more than one year, and people not buying could only just dream of it. so i could produce some prototype or game and other people not. It was a business change and i had to just keep going. I think it's sme for LE 2.5 i paid it so i could use it and enjoy it. It was perhaps some plan for LE3 buyers but like Unity this has changed, you just pay same price as everyone. Believe me , it's not so hard plan compared to Unity where you pay some 400$ and they pass free some months later and you have nothing in return

There has been lot of discussion about LE3 new features, Linux , upgrades and prices. I was thinking like some people, paying already for some upgrade ... but i re think on another engine i used and finally i thaught: No that's great like that? **************** Here is the example i had with some indie engine at very affordable price. Having followed some indie engine, popular for German people , i buyed versions since 2006. There was 3 versions i baught (one and two updates). Like LE 3 , not a team behind but one guy and some helpers if we can say. During two years, it has been no updates at all, they learned from that mistake. Last version didn't justify the price and version some of us said, and lot of stuff is braught on updates sometimes by skilled users could it be shaders or engine features, they rely too much on users for my taste, caus it can take lot of time. A lot is based on 2006 version engine interface and core. From 2 years or more it was speaken about new interface or real engine change but nothing until now. I check from time to time , and like Blitz3D , only the fans and people that like it as it is stay with it. So for Leadwerks 3, if we need to pay for major features, i don't see the problem finally to pay for them. Because i prefer to see the engine evolve like bringing super new rendering feature or a super editor feature, faster than lot of others. If paying some for going that way, why not , it's better than some engine super slow and letting users dreaming with promised stuff. Instead of waiting one or two years, for some new version without beeing sure meanhile if the engine is going on the right track with right stuff i would want to use. It's better to have some dynamic on updates, at least you are sure 3.1 ill bring great stuff, the engine wont' sink down, and this will help the engine growing more for future major updates. I prefer that then having some forecast page with writtent features from 2,,3, 4 years that have never appeared, and that only make people dream or wait for nothing. So yes, let's have important updates, with major features, let's put some money to encourage non so long time to have another big major update. It will be to you to decide if you need next update or wait for next one. But if LE3 keeps progressing like that , it will go in the right direction, and won't let people with some almost dead 3D engine, and instead it will be one dynamic with major updates that don't take years to arrive The more money you put ( without going crazy i hope ) , the more you 'll have and the more LE 3 will become a big indie one. it is better to have some dynamic changes and updates, even paying for , at least you are not dreaming of features that you are not sure they wont' come like i can see elsewhere.

It will be lot of time before 3.1 arrive. Will it be free or not, it will depend on features i think, specially if some are important. If it brings real CSG, all terrain tools , GUI ... why not , the total overall price won't reach 1000$ , even paying some update. It will be better to hear some people saying what they think once the update will be here and once they have tried it and make some game prorotype ... instead of crying lound i don't want to pay some update. And even LE 3.1 is not here by tomorrow So relax, take it easy, try already making some game in LE3 instead of wasting all energy in useless posts (like i do too much ). Nothing is here right now, not tomorrow, let's talk about pricing within some months or end of the year when 3.1 will be here. Could it be 3.1 or if , caus Linux will be decided from kickstarter if it's sucessfull, once that done ,if it is developped, let's wait for Linux version to arrive and people interested in Linux to try it and discuss some platform pricing.

Finally im' not against having to pay some upgrade, all will depend on content features and price (caus i will be a lot limited now).

Finally, i don't know, let's wait LE3 to stabilize and make better the actual 3.0 version. Than let's wait for LE 3.1 within end of the year, and it's price. But PC indie game interesHaving PC and Android, i will not be bale to afford some 200$ for each indeed. If i would want to upgrade mobile version only , it's not possible without upggrading PC version first, specially if i would want to make Android games only ? So for mobile we will pay two times the price for upgrades ?

Why pledging ? just wait for 3.1 and buy it when price will be fixed.

Nope, you can read these topics, caus you'll see different type of users with different needs and what they expect Iindies that don't achieve a game and just prototype like me and other that are in that case : putting any more money on LE3 without having some solid game to distribute for free or to sell is not justified at all indeed. Good for you if you achieve and sell games, indeed you can't invest more money in LE3 cause it's justified in that case, and we are not in the same indie field : - You and some others making and selling - Me and some others just toying, trying to achieve a game So indeed you can't understand a lot from ou point of views It's like buying some stuff like "cake maker 1.0" to make cakes for clients : - there are people enjoying the material and trying to make cakes, but they can't achieve it or don't make them as good as they should be So they don't need to upgrade to V1.5 or 2 until they are able to make good enought cakes ready to sell with actual version. - and other people using the stuff and making super cakes they sell with it, indeed these people wil invest more money in "cake maker 1.5 or 2.0" as the use the machine in a productive way, and the income allow them to pay for better machine update. Yes i hope LE3 to split in different offers for different people : - Free or limited for people tryingto make and not selling a game yet - Pay upgrades or put a bigger price in next versions or platforms for people selling stuff made with Leadwerks 3

http://nobiax.deviantart.com/gallery/24853853?offset=0 Free quality models and textures (Diff/Spec/normal) Programmers won't have escuses to have bad textures on their levels

@ZioRed : You are not forced to read our exhanges if they disgust you We know LE3 is not other big 3D engine teams. You wasn't here at LE3 starting blocks with prices like 1000$ ? Well perhaps yes, we don't say you are a bad guy, but if our posts have no influence, i think LE3 actually would be sold at some 1000$ with few ueers behind ? Perhaps it had been better like that ? Can we share our point of view could their not going on a way you don't like ? For updates, for example - 3D coat i didn't have to pay afer 3 years or more - I baught Zbrush 3.5 (with 4.0 access) and i dind't pay upgrades for years until now. So LE3 upgrades arriving so quickly ... hummm .... im' not sure, and specially when you are some indie with no real game in the maings , or nothing planned to be sold indeed. why paying more if you just toy and sell anything ? If you sell games and make even casual, in that case i understand paying some bunch each 9 months or year will be ok, because you use the engine in a productive way in the goal it is made for : making and selling games (could they be good or bad) I'm actually not selling games, not completing a game, that's why actually for me it would be non sense to pay any upgrade, specially when i use other 3D solutions at same time. It would be better that way : - free patches (LE3 need lot more time to maturate could it be bugs, and editor, it's not as mature/stable and fluent as some other softs) - Pay (bigger price more if needed) , but only for Next number upgrade for LE3 V4 , like other companies are doing. I prefer to pay lot more for a complete number version indeed, but paying between i never seen that a lot in products i baught. Sometimes LE3 seems to go in some trading system way, we are not money piggies , specially people just trying to make a game and not sure to finish any game, wihtout selling anything. We paid money in Beta, and have to pay some months after , whta is going on ? are we became rich ? And the LE 3 is far from what we expected (booleans, terrain,GUI ...) Why investing more in 3D features , if you can't put them to profit and finish game ? If LE3 will have a free version, i think it will solve lot of problems : 1) You don't have a finished game : Use free limited version 2) Your game is finished, you can sell it, but you want ot add extr effects/power/features Buy the complete version of LE3 or upgrade to last one. i think this would resolve this problematic upgraede politics and prices I won't make any more lot of big post noise like that. For my case : No game finished to justify putting any more money in LE3, the best is just stay with LE3 as it is. And decide within one year or more what to do.

Last time i tested Prefabs made of GSG seemed to be lightened like models, not BSP ? perhaps that's it prefabs work as models.

What i find not easy , is to pay some upgrade , some months after buying the product that is a very early not stable version even today after all bugs i met and continue to find. Usually you have new versions each year or more, that's rare to have to pay for some upgrade before one year. The best could be new ersion, one year later indeed. Paying before for some new version could it be number 3.2, 3.5 ,4 we don't care about the number, i mean paying before one year more money, indeed that's not usual with product you buy, and LE3 should have a very solid content to justify LE3 earlier buyers to pay again. Specially earlier adopters that accepted to put money on a new not prooven earlier 3D engine. For mobile ,so much stuff is missing, like GUI that is important, or simply lot of mobile stuff that don't exist : Joystick templates and GUI editor , buttons GUI editor and templates, touch templates detection (draw lines detection etc ...) Mobile is too much basic actually in terms of templates and templates detection touch device or acceleration detection, compared to what offers other 3D solutions. So for mobile i think LE3 will need one or two years before reaching such features, could they been braught by LE3 team or by users contribution, caus it's lot lot of work. It's my opinion only. I will see how LE3 evolve, how and when come some upgrade, and i'll see if i go or wait some year before making some choice. Until that i hope to see LE3 going in the right directions and decisions. Several platforms is good, but be ware it means lot more work, it will slow engine progression, like LE2 perhaps. It could had stayed with mobile and PC/Mac and just evolve as much possible in these areas with original stuff and tools , caus there is so much work and templates missing. I would say, you learn from errors and experience, like LE2 that lacked popularity, or LE3 too much big price at start, so i would say , why not ? LE3 can try some upgrade soon and any price as it wants. Only users choices to buy or not will prevalue and make the final decision. If enought people would buy for big price, why not, it would show LE3 users go that way , and others would just have to choose to follow or quit simply. I enjoy LE3 prototyping for now, it has potential, it is starting lot better than LE2 in the marketing/advert side, i hope it will go in the good directions and decisions

Reply , i share same about scripting changing in such basic way, it passed from modern high level script modularity to one file old system script The majority of us having used it in first form want the return of multiple scripts. It was fun, it was great, why going inverse and remove the fun , the great modularity it was ? Will it turn like XBOX ONE like revirement also ? Multiple scripts = -More guys having fun -More non programmers having fun -More shared scripts -More popularity -More non core programmers coming aboard etc ... @Fulborg : Microsoft understood lot fo gamers was going to PS4 caus they didn't liked Microsoft dictature. So you can buy Xbox One also (some guys sayed PS4 seemed more powerfull ...?)

Basically, we found once we got into serious game scripting Darkness was already a casual working game, already serious , no ? And scripts just worked... 1) Multiple scripts attached was really good, perhaps hard core programmer think no, but indeed this is no more hard core programming but scripting and modularity. 2 ) The health value can be managed per entity in it's own variable like : - attactkOnMe = false - if true decrease health Even better non same regin entities don't have ot run update() or check if player attacked them. 3) Instead of having plug-and-play scripts everyone can share, we have to devise a system of expected script names and variables. This breaks compartmentalization, which is what we were going for in the first place. Both Chris and I realized this approach was fundamentally wrong. - it's a core programmers advice from two core programmers : why not asking 3D artists community first ? Caus Lua is for them not for core eprogrammers. Instead of having plug-and-play scripts everyone can share That's what we wanted as 3D artists, why deciding for us what is better ... It seems i hear XBOX ONE guys saying : "we 'll make the system super closed and super restrictive" and finally they gonna super open Why closing scripts that way to non core programmers ? With the new way i see no more sharing or template scripts, this was a big advantage for non programmers.Should we not think to them instead of programming style ? Lua just loosed all it's interest that was module scripts we could share and just attach as we want and need. I stop beeing the bad boy , I won't insist a lot in modularity if LE3 just keep Lua this way, it's like that.

You know i seen some very indie RPG in big world, by super little team, they have created their own dynamic navigation system, and even sell it, and sell some solution RPG package. I seen the video, not sure they made character/npc models or houses, but it was looking great and really good, and navigation was top. They just need dialog, quests,inventory and a good story With good tools/engine, hard work it can be done. Indeed they won't make Skyrim 3D art, dialogs, all 3D art, all level design etc ... that's thousands people work during some years.

but we are indie programmers and I promise that 99% of us won't be taxing the computers enough to worry about the speed difference between C++ and Lua For big complex RPG, with multiple NPC AI to manage at same time, complex AI navigation in top of pathfinding, well C++ can be better suited. But if you are making some simple Run & jump games, Dungeon master remake, casual Third person shooter, arcade driving with indie graphics but good ones, could it be PC or mobile, i also think Lua will be enought in terms of speed. In some other concurrent engine, i see a bunch of 3D artists making games using some templates ready or going script only, specially on mobile games. And LE3 at beginning was great : I made several camera scripts, i could test , attach any of them at ay time , same with several AI scripts i was able to attach a common part and a specific one for specific NPC. Making behaviour that way was so fun and easy, like using components. One script is some big step back. I hope it will be reconsidered in the "user and components, tamplate" side advantage,more in the interest of non core programmers , instead just for the art of programming or visual style. Could we crate some voting for that ?

Furbolg : Im' not against C++, you don't seen my posts , but i compile now project with VS to be bale to use Lua. And i also created some protos projects on C++ only.My next step is create my C++ Game framework as LE3 don't have a level example with Player and NPCs. Nope having Lua only, multiple scripts would be good and would make me come back to full lua casual game making. For 3D artists or new comers to programming , or template modders Lua is good.

I agree a lot. Lua is not C++, LE 3 should keep C++ for such programming way, an let Lua be the "fun and play" language with possibility to have multiple scripts and it's lot more easy and fun that way Could LE3 come back to multiple scripts for our pleasure , and make back Lua the main language for 3D artists ? (specially for casual mobile or casual PC (dungeon master like remakes, advneture/action FPS , script is good enought, no need ot go C++) We should make a vote and ask Josh ? It should not be incredibly hard to come back to multiple scripts ? (I liked a lot LE 3 as it was at beginning with multiple scripts, i played a lot with that en enjoyed that way to attach scripts , even made by other people).

Ouya seemed to be released current 20-25 june if i remember well. I think it's too eralier for Ouya games, we don't know if it will be successfull enought and along the year ? And it's comparison to other last mobile devices in terms of power was not so good, there was problems and non cool things with their market store. Like some people said, it will be better with next versions of Ouya, this one is just a pionner one to install some console name and base before going stronger. I think it's better to stay with Android or Ipad, caus they are sold a lot , specially phones with big screens , and games are popular on mobile compared to Ouya. Some people will stay on PC for indie games, other will keep XBOX or PS3/4 and keep such indie games on their mobile only. Let's wait end of the year or one year to see if Ouya will be popular enought ? You have lot more chance to sell lot more a game on Mobile than new indie console. It's just my taste on the Ouya.

I rendered into 256*256 , and i have that : It's all white now ?? I put some developper shader and it rendered : So the problem must come from normal map /specular shader on lightmaps. I changed my material to Normal map only and bug remains. I changed my material to Diffuse lightmapping and it works. So there's more some shader and lightmap information rendering problem. So LE3 and big scenes is good for diffuse lightmapping only for now unfortunately. That's weird caus in the editor the display is ok, only running the game make errors.

Backport, is not mandatory for 3D engines, specially when the company is not Oracle or other thousands of people behind. Just curious what engine style do you need ? What game style ? what features ? LE 3 will shine prety good , when terrain and GUI will be here.

LE 3 even without terrain advantage actually, is that you can go full BSP if you keep level in some "simple indie way" , make some level in the "darkness" style , and have some indie playable game, perhaps even better than some thousands of indie (bad) games. It could be some RPG action, Dungon master, FPS in that simple indie way spirit. (as anyone go indie, you find lot of stuff from super bad or super newbbie to 3D to super good for skilled people) You add lightmapping supporting Normal/specular and you have a great lightmap solution for simple geometry levels. That's one among some other points that says me LE3 can shine better and allow to go faster than other 3D solutions for some little indie games