YouGroove

I think it would be great the 20 February also http://www.dailytech.com/Sony+to+Make+NextGen+PlayStation+Announcement+February+20/article29804.htm I'm not expecting too too much from Sony as i'm not hard core gamer, but we could be surprised ?

I guess LE3 will be available for LE 2 owners in end of February. Who can say better ?

I never made a complete game, only little demos or tests (are you happy ?) Don't feel so offended. It is that not all programmers will make a game and not all 3D artists will make a game also, perhaps i insisted too much on prgrammers, but it was to insist in the programmer orientation of LE 2. Lot of indie programmers today make and sell games even alone : only one popular example : MINECRAFT Or visit IndieDB, Desura, Steam GrennLights to see what amazing stuff is done even by some lonewolf programmers Even Rick has made the battle Chess game, and there is a cool demo game that could be completed like "The Last Chapters" they could be selled on mobile with LE3 also.

Too much complicated, even if some otehr 3D engine also make you pay for tutorials and code. I would prefer : Complete engine and framework, editor : PRICE A Complete engine and framework, editor + source for some stuff : PRICE B Perhaps Engine wihtout editor : PRICE C *********************************************** The engine have lot of features, but remains programmer in LE 2.5. (i remember you have to serach for entities names to manage them, and the world you made was not saved (no lights , no effects even if some people have coded a real save/load world) So 3D artists or simple script programmers could find it not as easy as some other 3D solutions. And lot of programmers remains programmers, they not always target a real game, some spend all time on tools and coding, and demos. Making and selling a game is different, you plan your level design , gameplay , graphics, even with a simple character controller to begin and make some first playable level. That approach is totally different, it do'nt suppose you code all your time , but it supposes you have a game in mind from beginning. LE3 will remain for programmers like LE 2, access to the API with functions , C++ etc ... But it brings new tools, a framework game , and new simple script framework to code games in a way you just code gameplay. No more need to code a game framework and you'll be able to save and load the world and entities, lights etc ... So i think if it will be really like that in the open way to 3D artists, yes you should see games selled with it, specially with Android (PC publishing can be complicated, mobile is somewhat direct) What matters is not games published, but what will we do with LE 3. And keep in touch you could be suprised to see some indie PC game using LE 2.5 some day

Well for now it is a pain to import 3D objects could it be with adn little tool or the model editor. The object is perhaps too heavy, and i see nothing in the model viewer, here is a way to move / zoom camera ? With the other tool , the textures are not applied ? Does anyone know a simple working solution ? Well i hope LE 3 to bring simple and more complete system to import models and textures.

Thanks a lot Diedir

I again loosed the tool. Does anyone knows where i can find this tool that allows to import models and generate the mesh and materials in LE format ?

The first tutorial method is good caus you have total control on how you make and optimize your tree. What is not so good on workflow, is on the normal maps, the guy complicated things , by sculpting in 3D, as they are some 3D Software allwowing you to paint directly on the normal map (and paint masks also for the tree truncks). The second method seems to befor high poly trees when it comes to leaves, so the first part can speed up things, but for leaves i prefer the first tutorial that gives better control, more looking good, and more optimized trees. So i would use that "auto" tool to just speed up things if needed for the trunck generation. There is also some special little and good "tree" generation program, but it is part of the editor of another popular 3D engine, so i won"t talk about it here. And there was a free program also that could done the truncks, and leaves and stay LOw/mid poly, i do'nt remember the name.

I would say it depends on what computers you target your game ? I test some Leadwerks game demo in my LapTop : - with shadows on , the frame rate is not good and you see it - shadwos off, the game runs very smooth. So if you target smalll computer , and some casual or indie games for any non powerfull PC, i recomend to go for lightmaps. Perhaps i would need to see some Leadwerks game made with LE 'static precalculated shadows' to see the difference in frame rate ?

Yes , it exists indie games that don't require incredible programming , just a good 3D engine and some original and top idea for example. Here is none example of original game : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8InnuIYGzg

Yes programming to bring original gameplay or visual special features. But that's not mandatory, you give some complete MMO tools and engine easy to use, if you have creative people and enought script power, a team could make some original MMO like : Fly in ships , land on planet, walk/run and shoot ennemies, dig on undergound of planets, construct space bases etc ... So even with standrad programming people can bring new gameplay( Fable 2 game, not incredible programming , but great ideas like social stuff, work mini games etc ...) And yes there is lot of not so known indie games made by one people. The examples put where more than one guy, but indie games with one guy, are a lot in mobile or IndieDB. Minecraft at start was one guy also !

I agree, advanced AI should be done by community in the form of some plugin template, for example you could find some Gears of Wars like AI with the ability to take cover, jump over little obstacles , and run with a special camera. I remeber using some old engine having a good editor, and containing all IA , but it was buggy , not maintained and was not enought customizable. This is not to the engine to give advanced AI stuff i think, i eally prefer that way of having only a basic features like telling to go from point A to B. And it will be to users to create advanced AI systems of any genre.

Yes flowgraphs can become problematic. Programmers and 3D artists in a team is the best solution indeed. But there is different sort of programmers : - programmer that need to program tools, new 3D features, shaders etc ... or core 3D engine things or features. - programmers that will program mainly gameplay , easy UI or shaders and special effect programmers Well LE3 will remain the core API for programmers to program only, so i think pure programmers should not worry And 3D artists mainly oriented people , targetting a game should be happy. I don't think it's for nothing if UDK has turned to : - indie game making world - mobile games - visual programming language You can find lot of 2D engines giving great features and tools to non programmers to make games, even with simple script to customize and mke their own special features. For 3D engines same thing is happening , you will find them to become lot more complete in 3D tools and features , lot more open to pure 3D creators could it be by some scripting language, or visual programming tools. And this way makes easy interaction between a programmer and a 3D artist, they work with same tools ,share same content, and the programmers can add script or other stuff, and the 3D artist can add 3D models and put/modify some gameplay using script or visual language. And don't forget anything alaways changes and evolves. Gaming market changing (casual games for people that won't spend hours playing , but just want fun during some hour or two here and here). Tablets becoming more and more powerfull, mobile phones everywhere. And game makers market is changing , but be rassured you will always find little 3D engines for pure programmers if they want to write their own stuff. And other non specialist programmers just asking for tools and features and don't want to re write what already exsists somewhere. I think we are fra from the main subject that is LE 3 speed

However, I'm rather confused because a lot of what LE3 seems to be is padding on the walls so that the n00bs don't cry? Your goal seems to be programming all yourself, you could even want to program DirectX directly ? why not ? Because you love programming. But there are lot of people and teams that just want the 3D Tools , and just program the gameplay could it be in Lua or C++. Like lot of people using engines like UDK. Unreal 3 games just prooves that, the core features, shader features, advanced graphic features are made by a team, you don't have to worry about all 3D advanced features, they bring that to you. So you worry only on your game content, gameplay, and how to sell it. There are different types of 3D engines for different style of people. You want to program tools and 3D stuff , just use Ogre 3D or another programming engine or directly Direct X ? Your Goal is MAKE AND FINISH A GAME, not spend time programming 3D features , than you need some editor with advanced and fluid Workflow for you and perhaps your team. Making a game is already a very big task when all tools and gameplay framework exists : * world design * level design * gameplay * features * dialog * cinematics * characters and monsters * particle and effects * optimisation and performance * advertisment * seek some investors * gameplay and levels test * bug fixes etc ... So this is lot lot of work indeed. All depends on what you consider yourself : Programming a game or Making the 3D content of the game. LE3 remains LE2 core functions it seems, people i think that like to program will be able to continue to program in C++ their own gameplay frameworks, their own tool , their own game programmed from basement and based on LE 3 dlls and API. And LE 3 brings evolution, it opens more to 3D artists with more oriented scripting , better editors etc ... I think this is enought choice and room fro programmers and non programmer (or less programmers) But i can understand people thinking in programming only, what matters to them si not the quality of the 3D content but programming a gameplay framework and other stuff it seems (perhaps i'm wrong).

Yes LE 2 is not very known, because it lacks real 3D games specially. What to say , it's easy to fail like Torque 3D or DX studio engines for example Why because of commercial bad decisions, no correct bug fixes, not enought advert ? not enought mobile games (T3D engine) etc ... And lot of people flammed Torque 3D because of bugs and blocking bugs , i remember a team becoming crazy making a game with it, then switched to another engine and they never didn't thaught on coming back to T3D. Critical bug fixes is an issue to avoid in a 3D game engine. Nowadays what you can see is 3D engine having and editor with easy workflow like drag and drop features, panels for physics, camera etc ... LE 3 is also going in that direction to open up to 3D artist or simple beginner programmers. The language reamins to be easy, and it seems lot of stuff will be now available by default (make the world and entities placement, load all that with one command etc ... ) Yes i believe in LE 3 caus fo it's new fluid and quick workflow, it's scripting from what i have seen seems to be in some way like what is done elsewhere (you could make some game entirely in script it seems). It will have new visual stuff for some similar programming, you will be able it seems (i don't have tested anything) to create some sort of tools or plugins to incorporate on the editor. So yes with Mobile also you are open to all Android tablet and Phones, so big potential of customers What i hope to see , and we will see how it comes, will be some plugin templates (like doen in another well known 3D engine). That's what will attract 3D artists, 3D beginners, new comers to game making : Ability to put and adjust in panels the player gameplay basics (physics, controls, camera), just that is crutial to already put some default 3D model character that is the player in the level to test gameplay and level design. So yes, if LE 3D will be enought open and easy to add features, these panel templates will be i think a critical features to attract more and more 3D artists and people Even World studio with lightamps, included directy in the editor will allow you to wor like in UT3 , you will be able to create rooms or level design stuff fast. even people will be bale to craete levels using ony Wordl studio (specially for retro or casual games on PC or mobile !). I don't knwo if it will be some trial version for new comers to LE 3 ? But this is the other point that will make people decision, if they can produce and put gameplay (code or template panels) easy and fast, with some beginner 3D game tutorials (third person game , FPS game, Racing game). Last point i already pointed out will be the advertisment : So adverts on some CG sites and others, but priority will be the GAMES maed with LE 3. Another 3D indie popular engine was not popular before V2 , it was Mac only, but already the great workflow editor attracted windows people , even some have baught some Mac just because they found easy script and wonderfull editor. But was made it popular have been : MOBILE. I've seen lot of programmers, simple 3D artists making little games, even good graphic ones, it was more and more games .. i've seen a basic 3D artist knwowing anything about programming making a game on mobile with some help in script. Nowadays there are visual programming languages for non programmers at all. So yes , LE 3 mobile games will bring advertisment and success. If a commercial PC game would be made with it , be sure it will make lot more advertisment for PC game making with LE 3. It's the gallery of games that promotes a game engine, so it will be our games also that will rise LE 3 popularity also. When i go to some 3D engine teh two things i look at are : - Forum topics not dead (and enougt people) - Games selled with it That shows the engine is running good. (For example Shiva 3D that is a good engine have lost more than two years with people wanting the version 2 to improve lot of stuff ... they have loosed customer that have gonna to another 3D solution) ( I had some idea : an optionnal LE 3 logo diaplay at startup on mobile games , for people who would decide to promote LE 3 generously ) So yes i'm optimist, because mobile games are not big PC games (even if they are Big mobile games also), they can be made minimalistic in textures, models, but with great gamelay( even casual). So lot of us will be able to put games on Android, it is much easy to publish for Android than on PC big platforms( steam, desura ). Who knows perhaps 3D artists will take the step and go for big 3D games on PC with big terrain worlds

Ambiant occlusion is standard nowadays, i dont think there is so much engines without SSAO, specially with computer power increase (you have the choice to turn it on or off usually). I remember some article talking about a DreamCast console game where it was hard coded the visibility of sections of the level

Well i seek for the LE 2.5 update version program as i my laptop have LE 2 installed but not registered and has the expiration date. Strange but seeking for the update program for me is logic to find in the downloads section , no ? Or in some "tools" or "program" section in the asset store. Or perhaps i'm wrong about the updater where to find it ?

You'll have a bigger optimization by removing non visible obects to draw, culling ,texture size, shadows optimisation and distance : these optimisation REALLY impact a lot your game more than simple C++ maths that don't use Trigonometry. I think we could put all C++ optimizing ideas posted here in some WIKI special : C++ code optimisation no ?

It depends on the loop also, if you ahve only a loop with 5 iterations i'm not sure this will impact a lot per frame. For Lua, this is some interpredted language, so this sort of optimisation i think will matter lot more.

Does this mean I will be able to produce a binary MAC OS X version of my game while developing my game on Windows platforms ? I would like to say impossible : Caus for IOS developping, you can make the game mobile under windows in your 3D game editor , but you need an Apple machine to create the runtime. Or perhaps i've missed something ?

For making a game i don't think we need more than one context ? Could we have some example having some basic game loop ? (like player pushing a key)

i knwo we can paint trees on the ground, i do'nt know myself if i'll make a PC game with big outdoors ? Again it's just curiosity, so will it be some basic box collision with the trunc of the tree ? instead of passable ones ? Passable ones can be good for visualisation projects, or Flying games where you don't interact with them or go so low on altitude.

It seems a good way. And the mobile games, made lot more faster than big PC games will be what continue in some way to make some advert for the engine also. Count on me on the first sales , like other people i am waiting for the message saying : "LE 3 is finally ready"

Well it don't concern me a lot , but will LE 3 have a good advert on some sites ? Even cg sites ? game artisans ? polycount ? or it is too much money to give ? Well im' just curious nothing else. (I hope it's not another stupid post like the previous one ?) I know that the better way is indeed games published in the market using the engine (like Crysis or UT3).

Well i know C++ si the fastest, that' why i plan to use it. For LUA and LE3 i'll see how it works how variables are shared etc ... if it comes similar to some engines allowing to make games only by script ? But C# is not so bad, and allow to make games , it is used in some engines even open source and until now it works, even if you could be faster with C++. Well, this is lot more optimisation and shaders i don't think they are so faked, and if some engine could allow to produce great visual quality games that would run very fast, i would not matter if something would be faked or not. I played Guild Wars 1 , and the LOD were so faked if we can say that, some model buildings in the far distance was onlyt a bitmap and not so well oriented if you took your time to look at it, as you come near it switched from the bitmap to some low poly modelsLOD polygon models. I prefer a game with lightmapping instead of real lights, if the result is the same and if i can gain lot of frames. What matters is the result and not what is coded behind caus the player even casual will never see your code or what technique you used.