YouGroove

Professionnal looking game ! All is great B) Does it you se a shader to have the cartoon look of the textures ? or it is just textures made like that with some filter applied under Photoshop or other ? (I'll try it tonight)

It depends on how detailled the indoors you want ? Caus keeping lot of very detailled indoors, if each one of them have uniwue 3D models or textures, you can overcome the memory ? For example : Follout 3 Series like Oblivion uses outdoor level and indoor levels for each hhouse/buidling and it works greatly. Or you can do some mix like : Loadind main terrain outdoor, when entering a building load it , when you exit, you Store Keep the Building outside Beneath the terrain, that way if you re enter this same building you won't have to reload it. And if you enter another different building, you eras one if it is one beneath the terrain, in fact the idea is keeping one building stored and loaded under the terrain Some other possible system : like some Queue where you could store to 4 indoors map , like some FIFO Programming system (First In , First out).

I think some FPSC but more clever done : Using 3D tiles instead of thousands ot assembled polygons for each wall/ground would be lot lot better And a 3D tile is one object compared to lot of objects for making a room in FPSC. I think some pople could propose basic 3D tiles that could connect between them and some sort of editor, you could place 3D assets in these 3D Tiles, Ennemies, ammo etc ... And the player controls would be some template, and you'll would have different templates for ennemies. Even with LE2 such editor could be done by some programmer, but well ... no one need such tool neither me , caus lot of us uses terrain instead of closed rooms also. I think people that want productivity first, will be happy with LE3 coming with an open plugin system !

Some insane customisation : Decals adding lot of freedom ! With decals like that , you won't have all people having the same tatoos or Clothes in game Insane Customisation APB Game

I think the things taht looks like that toys pakcs in games are the MMO Side : Like if you would have some range of 3D characters, with a range of hairs, armors, skins etc ... like toys you could pick up and play with If we would like to do same way with models for general common things like characters, the wya could be : -Standard body character - A set of heads (like in Oblivion) - A Set of skins (monster, futurist, medieval , today etc ...) - A Set of Armor pieces (up front , fore arms, front legs) - A set of Weapons ect ... People could buy the basic model , than all Set that they need fo exmaple in a futurist game : - Hats , skins, amor , weapon related to SciFi Same things for house : -A Basic shape - Different skins, futurist, medieval - different Roof types (plane, curved, standard , complex etc ...) - Big windows, Doors that could be at place of the Doors and Windows drawn on the skin etc ... all that in different sets like (Sci Fi, medieval etc ...) But perhaps the best way could be like games using 3D tiles sets of ready to go 3D houses and assets, plus 3D terrain Tiles. I think 3D tiles could be great to really let people express themselves freely. (Liek people using FPS Creator, the yhave tiles, even if i don't like their system and if teh yhave could use real 3D tiles like in some AAA games (Dungeon Siege etc ...) A Last way of doing Packs , could be in the style of Dragon Age games : Some premade 3D Terrain ready to deform, selled with : - several skin types - 3D Assets in a style (medieval,, Si Fi etc ..) - 3D effects in the same style for outdoor or environement - 2 or 3 Music - some ambient sounds

I admit , he thaught different , specially from Microsoft. He has brought good things at the beginning indeed, like The music devices before iPhone(Itcouh), but they were really expensive and not as good quality as some equivalent devices and prices sometimes. He's not the real inventor , i think he brought the concept and general idea, he just gave general ideas, behind him there is an army of game designers, ingineers , etc ... that prototype the products. And i don't like at all the politics of Apple : - you can't change a simple Battery yourself, and it's increaduibly expensive as hell - The system is too much closed - New versions of Iphone or Ipad each 6-7 months now ... others beeing obsoletes ! I think he was great at advertising, making a show, and generate people "need to buy something new" when it was not so necessary ! I really don't feel that his life is more important than some FireWorker or Ambulance guy that saves lifes all days. Sorry, but that's my own appreciation of real life values ! Now from a Game Making business, indeed the Iphone and Ipad bring a new market available for indies and anyone wanting to make games, that's a great advance compared to realy years of computers when game making was very closed and highly demanding skills ! Thats' a great thing for people having fun making a game and winning some money to get motivated and go further. Small game companies will bring back mroe simpler games like in old times, but lot more interesting than all AAA PC games taht remains the same without real new ideas

I'm not sure you will be able to sream some 1380*1200 resolution and more with next generation consoles and PC hardware incoming ?? Even more each server will need serious 3D cards, if you have 200 people wanting to play let's say Crysis 2, it means for them having 200 3D Cards on top of the market ! And with quick PC and games evolutions it will cost a lot for them to buy new 3D Cards to have the best graphics ! I'm not sure the Cloud will be enought good for playing lastest AAA game with all details ON ..... And the eternal problem of having a connexion to play .... if there is an internet shut down , or you have some problem on lines, you can't do nothing. Well, im' old scholl and perfer to have my console at home, having the console and disc or cartridge is something totally different from virtual ... Caus you can exchange, give it on a real box for an anniversary for example .... From developper point of view, if it will work in some way, and if you can put any 3D game with an 3D engine, yes it could be good to publish a game on their platform. I don't know if Steam won't be a better solution ?

Or you could just put an invisible squarre mesh that covers the water mesh, and when your character Vertex of the mouth is on the volume of the squarre he is underwater. It could be a bone of the mouth instead of vertex also. And like it has been said, just take the altitude of the water could the water plane be at 0 or any other value , if the bone of the mouth is under, your character is underwater whatever the animation you would play : this is the accurate way The simple way : Detect if your character is swimming (what you should program when your character have the water reaching his torso), and you could manage a simple variable when the player would push the character to go underwater and when he goes off undewater : 1 = underwater 0 = not underwater There are lot of ways of programming that. You should study game programming in some basic books and begin simple games, after that you'll know that you will be able to manage anything you want

and give basic building block scripts that the user joins together to make entities Like i said , this seems to be more something like templates in that case ? For Lua i thaight lot more in script methods that could be "attached" to any entity. Some simple example : For example we would have two methods , one for the Initialisatio nof the entiity , the other called each engine frameUpdate for the entity : Method InitialiseMe(){ var life = 100 ; } Method rotateMe(){ EntityMe.Rotate(10*timeStep) ; if(EntityMe.Collision == 1 ){ if(EntityMe.Collision.Entity.name == "Bullet") { EntityMe.life = EntityMe.life -20 ; if( EntityMe.life == 0 ) { EntityMe.freeEntity(); } } } } So this way of programming , if we would have attached this script to several entities on the level; all of them would rotate each frame , and and disappear if they would be touched (on collision) by some entity whose name would be "bullet". This is lot more like something like "attaching code to entities". And indeed if you make some code that would behave like an ennemy, each entities taht would have this code attached would behave like an ennemy. It's more this way i would have seen Lua ?

Thanks Laurens ! Without the table the algorithm will be like that i think : Loop Entities if entity.Name.startsWith("wolf"){ entity = WolfClass.update(entity) ; } if entity.Name.startsWith("Bird"){ entity = BirdClass.update(entity) ; } End Loop For CallBacks method, the code can become complicated if i put some code on some CallBack method and some other code on thers CallBacks ! Perhaps it's better to put all methods and code in a single Class or method.

What gameplay is not for me is coding lot of stuff to do simple things : Some C4 Engine examples : I meaned some C4 Examples of what means lot of coding to do simple stuff Yes i find that C4 is really the hell to programm !

@Metatron : Thanks for the advice. I'll try tonight or tomorrow depending on free time. But i think more and more going one more time to the full C++ way with LE2 , it have lot of chances to be as much code could it be Lua or C++, and same complexity to manage the entities.Actually with LE2 makingt the game in Lua or C++ the benefits and differences are not big if you have to manage entities and their updates, you can manage completly the entity in C++ i think. Finally i htink the algorithm will be somethign like that : -> Loop throught all entities names { if entitie.name = "Wolf" -> tableEntities = new Wolf(); if entitie.name = "Bird" -> tableEntities = new Bird(); i+1; }; On the main loop of the programm i'll call the Wolf Update method : Main Loop { Player.update(); for (i =0; tableEntities.size(); i++ ) { tableEntities.updateFrame(); } } I think it's the general idea. And each entity could herit fomr some common Class that would have the methods : - init() - FrameUpadet() - FreeEntity() ; Well thats the wxay i think to make my own framework entitie manager !

Well in fact i have 10 ennemies , some five are the class (class or method manager in Lua ) : "Wolves" the other 5 are the class "Birds" I place the models in the world Editor each five have the same name "Wolf", the other 5 have the same name "Bird". So in the main Lua Loop , i'll have to : -Load the scene -Load the entities -Load lights - Load scene parameters On the initialisation i'll have to : - Init each five "Wolf" entities variables with Life, Attack, and place that 5 Objects on a table - Init each five "Bird" entities variables with Life, Attack, and place that 5 Objects on a table - init the player Than on the main loop method i 'll have to : - Manage player input and variables - Manage all 5 Birds - Manage all 5 Wolf - Manage main menu if needed Is that the way of having a complete interaction fo player some 10 ennemies ? If someone would have some code example i would be happy also to read it

About Gameplay programming i must have not explained well what i think about ! In gameplay indeed i htink in : - Camear management - Collisions - Variables management - Dialog System - Inventory - Character follwowing system or simple Scripted waypoint navigation system - Character movement and specific collisions - LOD or Region Hide/Show programming All that depends on your game type, not all games requires all that features or sometimes simplified versions of inventory or other dialog system ! For me gameplay is all that, and i'm ok with all that. What gameplay is not for me is coding lot of stuff to do simple things : Some C4 Engine examples : Push a Button part 2 Simple Character in C4 I know even LE2 is not in that way complex or we can do things lot more easily. Yes i think each people will have to dig in rogramming even with script ! Or they'll have to buy some specific 3D engine or packake : FPS Creator, full MMO engine etc ... For people wanting to do any type of game or something new , or including originality, indeed programming is needed. I'm not waiting for someone to make an inventory system , or custom camera for me , i'll program it. Perhaps with LE3 plugin system and new Lua way we will see some templates for some type of game, but that's not what i am waiting for .... In my case i just would had perefrered an already integrated framework : entities heriting from some Init and FrameUpdate methods, and you having just to place them on the world editor and specify the Class that would drive them.

Yes , i agree ! I didn't understood at first time. Yes even with simple graphics , the challenge can be hard, if you can 't put consistent ligtening , graphic theme or textures brightness and composition.

@Laurens : You should open your mind a little more : Minecraft , Terraria, Limbo uses simplest possible **** graphics ... and well they are big big sucess no ? And there is a PS3 interesting title using vast sand landscape with the simplest graphics you could find also, and im' sure it will be a success. I hope having a team is not a requirement to use LE3 ?? Yes, programming is needed, could it be Lua , C++ or any other scripting language. I talk about basic simple programming , let's take some simple example : If (input.key = "A") { Camera.TurnX(5) ; } Even that for a 3D artist having some background programming. Indeed for someone that have never programmed , it could be hard to undertand i agree. Myself i know a lot in Java, C# , i have done in the past some C, some Blitz3D and other basic language, so i have a good background.I'm not talented 3D artist, but i can do good things (for example using Zbrush, characters are easy for me) ! I just want to program gameplay, perhaps little additionnal custom things, but not shader or complicated 3D maths routines (i don't like maths) ! And if the engine allow me to prototype as fast as Unity3D in Lua it would be great. We don't talk about templates at all here ... If templates exists they will be another part made by some individual users, and perhaps some people using FPS Creator for example could be interested to use them for modding. But yes we never said that LE3 should have templates at all , this will be to people to make them if templates must exist. No we just talked about direct Lua programming without needing to manage entities, main loop, and framework for fast game prototyping or creation using Lua ! I think the threads turns not to talk about LE3 and Lua , but lot more around : "Artist Vs Programmer" So we should speak about Lua in LE3 , talk about how it will work, how scripting system will be for entities instead ! The Vs debate idon't find it interesting , and each people believe in it's own believes until one day he sees the contrary of its own believes, not all htings are full Black or Full White like each people believe it

I think you are right ! But there are lot of little games on Iphone made by one guy indeed. And the Ogre 3D game : Salvation Prophecy is a one guy project, even if he has baught and asked custom 3D models ! One guy is possible, you don't need to hire for 3D graphics a guy on your team, you can buy 3D models and custom 3D models The other part is money income being one guy its' more easy to manage. I don't know how it can be if there is two guys : a 3D artist and a Programmer doing an Iphone game ? How the money gained on the Itunes Store is split between the two guys ? Who is the guy that have passed teh contract with the Apple Store ? And in Unity 3D forum i see regulary, little games made by people knowing basic script programming or aksing help on forums and making the game. Or programmers using tricks to do a good looking game (like using cartoon style and graphics for example or simple graphics ) Examples can be Minecraft for example !

Oh amazing And there will be lot more applications or other game genres possibles , like invincible ennemies following you and you must hide on shadows or special floors tiles ... etc ... @gordonramp : I think game saving is very specific, and you have a very simple method that can be to save checkpoints to make things easy, like saving player life, ammo, Scenario completed stages ... all that in a simple file. And games that don't use checkpoints and saving real time action , are too much easy , it allows players to finish the game lot more easy, caus you save each time you are doing well against a bosss for example ...

I understand the team aspect for PC games. But for mobile platform the things are totally different : A god programmer with medium 3D art or the help of some baught 3D characters or packages can do a great qualit game. In the other side a 3D artist knowing how to program Camera, Gameplay, don't need to know complicated math programming to do a great game ! And there are example of lonewolves games that are successfull on steam and great : Limbo, Bastion, Terraria etc ... And Lonewolves capable of BIG LOUD games : Ogre 3D : Salvation Prophecy So you see, some succed at both, even if they requiere some temporary help from some 3D artist or programmer (on forums or outside !) LE2 programming tutorials and examples are fearly simple, could it be C++ or C#or Lua , and the commands are easy ! I have no problem with that. I just wanted a high level Lua interaction between objects similar to Unity, but i'll try the table of objects and their management with my own main function in LE2 Something to prototype a game lot more faster before going further and turning it into a full C++ game for example; caus yes Lua goal can be to Prototype the game also by putting together the 3D art , basic gaemplay and seeing if already the game is valuable before going on ... Perhaps you are right about LE2 , but LE3 will bring a better workflow, with new material/object editors also; something i'm interested a lot also !

They are lonewolves indie people that succeed making good 3D art and programming after using a 3D engine. Lot of examples can be seen on mobile, because the 3D art is not as pushed as with AAA games on PC ! I didn't say LE3 should be for programmers or 3D artists, i said i just hope it will make scripting more easy and direct as in Unity 3D, only my hope, perhaps lot of people don't feel the same ... I really need to try something in Lua and LE2 and stop talking about LE3, we will see for Lua how it works when it will be delivered, until that , i think i just can wait .... And programmers can be rassured LE3 will reamin a 3D engine for programmers, no doubt on that ... (don't feel so attacked ...)

You are right, i baught the wrong engine, i mean LE2 ... But i had a good feeeling about the world editor , and terrain tools for some outdoor big levels, it was what i was seeking also. For the programming side, yes I didn't understood the LE2 way of using Lua, i just understood step by step after some time using it and asking lot of questions ! LE3 seems to that it will have the script ready for game , just by implementing gameplay , without writing a "main" function and table of entities, you'll have just to "attach' the code to entities if i understood well ? So LE3 when i will test seems to be what i exepected ... I'll test , and i'll see if yes or no ... I know that LE2, LE3 will remain engines for programmers, i'll just test the Lua side of LE3 and see how far we can go ! After that , the choice will be mine ..

I agree with you, we won't go to the "push" the button to make the game or some defined ammo/weapons variables , it is Templates in that case. (perhaps some people will wrfite oens with future plugin system ?). No i just talked about a standard framework controller that you can find in lot of 3D engines with Init() methode, FrameUpdate() methods for example, just that no more. Some of us don't want to reinvent the wheel each time, and perfer to make the game as fast as possible : Only gameplay programming point. You ask total control , that's your way of seeing game programming like lot of other people, but that's not the only way, that's the way you like, that's your way, not the way some others like me want or like ! That's your right to defend your point of view, and C++;C# will remain as they are ; all the work is dedicade to the programmer caus he wants total control and he likes to program ! But you can't prevent other people to gain some Lua framework or some Lua more 3D artist oriented capability "like" Unity 3D . If we gain scripting in Lua allowing what allow Unity Scritping System it will be good for some bunch of people , specially with mobile targets !! Mobile fast and easy game making "a la" Unity 3D is what some of us would seek, and just seeing lot of Unity 3D mobile games published and all people that have used it's scripting system : Isn't it efficient and prooven to work even for 3D artists ? So why not LE3 with Lua going this way ? For my part i have already the points to verify to know if i'll go for LE3 or not when it will come out ! Just let's wait for LE3 ...

In fact for my part i was just asking Scripting as simple as in Unity 3D for interaction between characters and any other game stuff ! I like the way you implement things in the frameworks, it's simple , easy to understand. I never asked full visual language, no , just simple script with a simple integrated framework for anything. I don't have to go in details, just try Unity 3D free version and it's scripting system If you have similar way of programming as simple in Lua with LE2 ,just show us the example ?? Caus until now the example i found, i didn't found simple interaction between an ennemys and player or NPCs simple without having to implement a main method and lot of stuff etc ... I ask nothing in fact, let's wait how LE3 will work, and each people coming to the engine that is more 3D artist oriented , will see how they can do things and if they are okay or prefer to use another engine line Unity 3D or other ?

This is already the case for the current version. Scripts are attached to classes and you can specify properties on individual instances. LoadScene loads all of these "automatically". Actually , you have to load the entties by name and depending on the name : place a light or place X or Y entitie. Than have some big table containing all dynamic NPC and manage their interaction. Same thing for loading all the scene properties you have to sue some module "Framework" it is not standard , not loaded directly as you done it in the editor. Perhaps i have misunderstood for the scripting part ? but its' in the beginner questions that i had all these responses showing me that you can't just attahc in LE2 the script in the entity to interact with others , all previous stuff is needed. And LE3 will go in that direction with Lua where you'll have just to attach the script for game behaviour. Or ask to Rick that knows a lot about Lua, he is the specialist and can reply about LE2 and Lua. Once again we talk about Lua side of LE3 , the more 3D artist side (no compiler needed also) , not the C++ programming side, caus that programming side indeed will remain the core of the system to allow C++, .Net and other languages to use the engine as they like. By "open" i just mean, more friendly and only gameplay to write without needing to write some standard framework loops or other stuff in Lua. One again we talk about Lua programming not C++ or C# And LE3 already have that, so it will be ok for 3D artists to pick up the engine with Lua i think ! My responses where more to give answers to stephan360 that seemed to ask these sort of features, and perhaps he didn't understood theses features were alreafy incorporated in LE3 ?

@Naughty Alien : what if navmesh need to be rebuilted in runtime ? I think it's to people to avoid that depending on their game type. Perhaps for some type of game avoid having physic objects interacting with the pathfinding system : A barrel falls in the path , the NPC will try to avoid it, or just push it or destroy it after walking on it ? Or just put Dynamic models that are tiny , and keep the big ones for large paths or rooms. The pathfinding is a big addition for gameplay, no more worry about NPC needing to chase the player without beeing stuck on the level or dungeon or whatever. If it incoporates in LE3, with the plugin system perhaps some people will make advanced pathfinding tools for LE3 why not ?