What exactly is the polygon limit for Leadwerks???

[David Mortensen]

Hi there, i am an old newbie in here (purchased the old Leadwerks 2 back in 2010, because Torque was going Down but has just as of today purchased both the indie and standard license on steam!) and i would very much like to know the answer to my question because i come from a unity background (i haven't left the Unity game engine!) but i want new challenges that are too much of a pain to overcome but i have already stumbled upon a huge problem... i know the differences between unity and leadwerks and other engines, but i can use and re-use a sphere (that has the exact same number of polygons as the one in Leadwerks) in Unity 1451 times with physics Applied to each and every one, where as,i can only use and re-use the same sphere in Leadwerks some where under 200 times before it starts to jitter / lag... how come that be, i can remember back in 2010 the slogan of this website was something like Leadwerks was a next-gen game engine... i can't see that, but i am wondering if there is anything in particular i have to do in order to be able to have more polygons in my scene at once??? (btw, i have tried the debug version of my project, and it start to lag already at approx. 2500 polygons!) otherwise i cannot see how i will be able to use Leadwerks since my vision (no it is not the best vision of a game engine!) of a game engine is that it should deal with way more polygons than a sloppy 15000 polygons before the framerate drops to an avg of 5 fps (ooh, i forgot to mention my pc specs just to ensure it isn't my computer that is the issue... i use Intel core i7 4790K devil's canyon, 32GB 2133Mhz ram, and my gpu is a evga geforce gtx 980 acx 2.0 sc with 4GB)

 

The only reason i mention my pc specs is to close out the theory that my computer is old / semi-old

 

Thanks in advance.

Standtall007.

[nick.ace]

This can be a difficult thing to diagnose. First of all, most likely the biggest performance issue here is the physics, not the polygons. This is where you might get different results. Leadwerks physics uses Newton Dynamics as the physics library, which is primarily concerned with accuracy over performance. Unity uses PhysX if I'm not mistaken, and PhysX is probably more optimized for large loads.

 

In terms of polygon counts, Leadwerks should be able to handle millions of polygons (I haven't tested, but I have a much weaker computer than you and have used well over 150,000 polygons in a scene before). I think there were even tests Josh did with many millions of triangles, but I can't seem to dig that up right now. Part of the reason why I say this is because Leadwerks uses a deferred renderer, which polycounts rather irrelevant, and Unity free doesn't (although the paid Unity does).

 

The debug run option is mainly for exception handling and stuff like that. I would not run your code with that. I think it's more for code debugging than for actual testing. That being said, I personally don't find the debug run option that useful, but it might be more useful to others. It drastically decreases performance.

[gamecreator]

You might have been thinking of this:

[macklebee]

...because Leadwerks uses a deferred renderer, which polycounts rather irrelevant...

 

The number of polys are important regardless of renderer.

[nick.ace]

Thanks gamecreator for the link!

 

The number of polys are important regardless of renderer.

 

Well, maybe I shouldn't have said that (I meant it more in a practical sense since that is unlikely imo to be the major performance wall), but I doubt anyone will reach the polygon limit alone unless you use higher unoptimized meshes. Anyway, deferred renderers tend to be much more efficient than forward rendering (Unity free) when using large amounts of geometry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_shading

[David Mortensen]

Alright thanks Guys i'll try it out later today and see if i can get a better result by removing the physics and don't get me wrong i find Leadwerks VERY attractive to Work with it is just the physics (which might be the real issue here but i honestly haven't thought of that ) i thought that the physics didn't make any change and the reason i bought Leadwerks yesterday (i actually purchased it before the discount dropped further Down to the -66%) was to learn to develop games with it, and i am not a prejudice, i can love more than one game engine (i amnot refferring to you Guys but the Unity fanboys ) but thanks so much for your help as mentioned, i will try it out later and return with my answer regardless what it may be cheers so long!

[David Mortensen]

Hi all, ok so i have just tested it out and, just like nick.ace mentioned it turns out that the mass (physics) when turned to 0 then it plays the scene more fluently though i tried to insert more spheres in order to try out how many poly's i could have in view at once, though honestly when there are either a lot of low poly objects inside the scene altogether, the scene lags pretty much (when NOT running or debugging!!!) so i thought i wanted to create fewer more high end spheres (instead of 12 sides, the spheres now have 32 sides) but with fewer spheres in the scene (72 to be exact!) the thing is, i can debug the scene with the 72, 32-sided spheres (in total they has 512 poly's each) and i found out the scene loading was unbearrable, literally it took 5 mins to load a very simple scene when hitting the run buttons and 10 mins or above to load the debug version of the same scene, now i have understood that debugging your scene can take longer and that's fine but still, 5 / 10 mins for a mere 64000 (approx!) polygons in the scene at once, isn't much and the worst thing is that with Unity i can have approx. 5m tris (i think that it is approx 2.5m poly's) and it only takes a couple of seconds to load, anyway i am not entirely satisfied with the limitations, as i hoped for a nice new learning curve, but maybe it's just me (probably is ) but i AM very demanding when it comes to poly Count, but that is mostly due to me wanting to be able to slack it off when lazy, but that looks like a no-go when it comes to Leadwerks!? anyways, thanks for all your help Guys!

 

Cheers,

Stantall007.

[YouGroove]

so i thought i wanted to create fewer more high end spheres (instead of 12 sides, the spheres now have 32 sides) but with fewer spheres in the scene (72 to be exact!) the thing is, i can debug the scene with the 72, 32-sided spheres (in total they has 512 poly's each) and i found out the scene loading was unbearrable, literally it took 5 mins to load a very simple scene when hitting the run buttons and 10 mins or above to load the debug version of the same scene, now i have understood that debugging your scene can take longer and that's fine but still, 5 / 10 mins for a mere 64000 (approx!) polygons in the scene at once, isn't much and the worst thing is that with Unity i can have approx

 

 

 

You should post your a video or pictures and upload your map before just writing things and stating numbers

I made the test i got more than 60 fps , with 70 spheres (32 sided) , each with physics and shadows and i don't have the best 3D card as it is Radeon 6700 HD

 

 

Why are you giving false informations ?

 

 

 

 

and i found out the scene loading was unbearrable, literally it took 5 mins to load a very simple scene when hitting the run buttons and 10 mins or above to load the debug version of the same scene

 

The loading time of the map above is one second, some two seconds for initialisation and lunch.

 

anyway i am not entirely satisfied with the limitations, as i hoped for a nice new learning curve, but maybe it's just me

Yes it must be you only.

 

was to learn to develop games with it, and i am not a prejudice, i can love more than one game engine (i amnot refferring to you Guys but the Unity fanboys )

 

I don't know why you point Unity so much ?

Many of us uses LE3 and Unity or others engines, some people make their main money income selling assets or making games, like some people using LE2 or LE3 now.You should try to respect other people and what they do whatever the 3D engine is.

 

 

Each 3D engine has good and bad points, there is Unreal 4 users that left for Anarchy engine because they were not happy on some points for example, or some that left Crysis because it was not easy enought to use for them, so it's a matter of personnal needs and appreciation also.

And you can't compare engines driven by teams of engineers and others driven by few people, each has it's own advantages and weak points, and you know LE3 advantages : low price, full features , easy commands and programming, solid car physics support, no royalties and many things are coming.

 

 

 

 

but i AM very demanding when it comes to poly Count, but that is mostly due to me wanting to be able to slack it off when lazy, but that looks like a no-go when it comes to Leadwerks!?

If you try to make the next Mmo , SKyrim or GTA than perhaps LE3 is not the right tool.

LE3 is very capable engine, but you will have to make and use optimisations to keep a good frame rate, it's valid for any 3D engine : LOD, custom culling sometimes, swicthing materials , activating deactivating entities etc ... . Game dev is hard work even to make a complete small game.

 

 

Can you tell us more about your project , do you have some design pictures , model or level picture or videos ? Are you solo or in a team ?

Instead of making spheres and focusing on polycount, you should really think in a precise game, gather ideas and begin design instead

[MarkusR]

i saw 3 things that outbrake the engine.

physics collision.

ai monster lua.

turning/moving 3d modells with property static shadow (if it make sense use dynamic)

[David Mortensen]

YouGroove, firstly i don't mind either Unity OR Leadwerks... i like Leadwerks' map editor better than Unity's level editor! secondly the reason i am experiencing a 5 - 10 mins map load is really unknown to me, i gotta be honest i don't have a clue as to what may be the problem but i am thinking it may be some other software running on my computer but i don't know! Also i am NOT giving false information instead i am trying to get help to resolve these issues because (here comes the main reason as to why i am talking so much about Unity!) i really want to make a game with the Leadwerks Engine (mainly because it is of no challenge to me anymore in unity!) and that is basically what i have to say, but please understand that i am frustrated because i have Never experienced this much loading time EVER with a game engine, but i Will investigate further to see if it isn't just my computer is running some software that Leadwerks doesn't co-Work properly with

 

But don't get mad because i am not trying to attack Leadwerks... (but once Again, am i the only one experiencing that this textbox ignores some letters when typing plus the text-line is blinking like it is on speed?? cause maybe that could be software that is running in background???)

[David Mortensen]

Here is a link you Guys can check out on youtube.com. it shows exactly how long it takes to load an extremely simple scene... btw YouGroove, i was wrong about the loading time... sorry about that! it felt longer than it took but anyways it does take a while to load this simple scene! and for some reason when debugging the game crashes in the video at the end :/ i am recording in 30 fps, however when realtime the pc runs at 120fps, which you'll also be able to see when the debug crashes

 

Here's the link:

http://youtu.be/lr0BzqrtkFw

[YouGroove]

But don't get mad because i am not trying to attack Leadwerks

You posted bad performance numbers without any video and any upload of the map, while i took the time to make the test and it runs perfectly smooth on my older 3D card than yours. LE3 is not the best , but not the worst, specially for the low price.

 

i really want to make a game with the Leadwerks Engine

If you target too high requirements, trying to make some Skyrim or big Mmo, you will have perhaps to use a bigger 3D engine and move all your assets to it, you should first try making a prototype using your 3D assets , and finally take a choice.

What is your game style you want ot make with LE3 ?

 

mainly because it is of no challenge to me anymore in unity

It seems you are more toying with game engines than trying to make a game, because this is Unity goal to make the less challenge possible for you, allowing you a smooth experience when making your game. Why searching challenge ? that's crazy.

If you want challenge i propose you Crysis engine, believe me you will have more challenge than you could ask dealing with it's framework programming and very low docs

 

Here is a link you Guys can check out on youtube.com

LE3 is blocked by your firewall or you have some graphic initialisation problem, i don't know.

You should upload your map in the Bug Reports thread, if Josh don't have time, some of us perhaps will test it.

[Ameshi]

Here is a link you Guys can check out on youtube.com. it shows exactly how long it takes to load an extremely simple scene... btw YouGroove, i was wrong about the loading time... sorry about that! it felt longer than it took but anyways it does take a while to load this simple scene! and for some reason when debugging the game crashes in the video at the end :/ i am recording in 30 fps, however when realtime the pc runs at 120fps, which you'll also be able to see when the debug crashes

 

Here's the link:

http://youtu.be/lr0BzqrtkFw

 

Why is taking so long to load, the engine is that slow?

[AggrorJorn]

Can you try loading an empty scene to see how long that takes? The loading time in your video is absurdly long so there most be reason for that.

[YouGroove]

Why is taking so long to load, the engine is that slow?

Ameshi :

This is purelly trolling

He has a problem in it's config.

 

 

Do you have read the entire post and test i made, before arguing something you didn't even tested yourself ?

 

I made the test i got more than 60 fps , with 70 spheres (32 sided) , each with physics and shadows and i don't have the best 3D card as it is Radeon 6700 HD

 

The loading time of the map above is one second, some two seconds for initialisation and lunch.

 

 

Grow up and save your time for your game project if you would had one ?

Constructive posts are better appreciated.

[Josh]

The video above doesn't make any sense to me. If you upload your project I will be happy to take a look at it.

[Ameshi]

My guess is that the video show leadwerks taking 8 min to load a scene.

I mean with the project we can maybe see why.