The Linux Grumpy thread

[Guppy]

Continuation of http://www.leadwerks.com/werkspace/statuses/id/7945/

because having long conversations in status messages gets messy

[Ronald Buanno]

Yea they sure do get messy.

[Ronald Buanno]

Long story short. I am the grump master extraordinaire.

Also, Guppy I see your using Ubuntu Linux now. How are you liking it?

I use Gnome Meta-city for my desktop instead of Unity and it's much nicer in my opinion.

 

Also, windows users? Why are they so ... ugh? We might never know.

[Thirsty Panther]

Continuation of http://www.leadwerks.com/werkspace/statuses/id/7945/

because having long conversations in status messages gets messy

 

I can only see 4 posts of the 35 on my ipad. I will have to get on my desktop to see what all the fuss is about.

[knocks]

Also, windows users? Why are they so ... ugh? We might never know.

 

It seems mostly Linux user have the need to categorize themselves by OS, majority of us are just users.

[Ronald Buanno]

The fuss is about generally misleading advertisements and the lack of a Beta tag for this engine, which is so clearly in development. Mentioning that it currently only has one developer also would be nice (but i can see how that is pushing it), considering the amount of money you have to spend to get this product. In general I am grumpy, and feel like showing my grumpiness.

[Ronald Buanno]

It seems mostly Linux user have the need to categorize themselves by OS, majority of us are just users.

 

Lol, if only this were half true. Anyone else read steam forums? Or any forums for that matter? Window's users quite frequently tell us to shove off because we use Linux... Which mind you is what any serious business uses in one way or another. I'm tired of this conversation in general, but if you would like to continue a conversation about why Linux users are the ones that get picked on even though we provide all your services, lets go for it.

 

 

-- On a side note, I am now geared for full grumpiness. --

[Olby]

Continuing the chat discussion...

 

Its funny how you complain about it being beta. Lack of features does not mean its beta. They just have not been implemented in the current version. If there is anything advertised and it does not work (or is missing) then you have all the rights to go on the Bug Forum and report the issues. However I'm not sure if there is anything thats being marketed but missing from the engine. There are no rules what makes an engine an engine.

 

Also why are you repeatedly accusing me of being biased? Simply because I don't agree with whatever you are trying to say? Recently I've noticed how the influx of affordable AAA level game engines have affected the indie game engine market. You have new users coming on board and comparing UE/Crysis or whatever top-class engine to $100 worth indie game engine. Back in my DarkBasicPro days there were no other options (none of the big engines were available) and people stuck to what they have and just worked through loads of bugs and missing features to make GAMES. Seems like things are different these days.

[Guppy]

It seems mostly Linux user have the need to categorize themselves by OS, majority of us are just users.

 

A "Feature X is broken in the editor"

 

B "Works for me, must be your machine/driver"

 

 

Because windows users assume everybody they speak to us also using windows, B tests and replies as he does.

Knowing this I always add "on Linux", not because of pride issues but to avoid inconveniencing windows users.

 

And no the majority of your aren't "users", but rather "windows users" - Mac, iOS, Android, OUYA support was all removed - leaving only two os'es windows and Linux ( in reality only Ubuntu LTS and Steam OS ). And Linux support is lackluster at best, try using the editor on Linux and see how long you last.

[MarkusR]

better as beta tag is "Perpetual Beta". for me its normal that software is still in developing.

i missed what the main problem is at linux.

[Guppy]

Disclaimer; this post is written with "hot blood", as I'm a little pissed off at ( from my POV ) the loyalists being out in force trying to deny that any problem exists.

 

i missed what the main problem is at linux.

 

In the editor;

• Buttons randomly do not work (well they consistently do not work, but the buttons appear to be randomly selected )
  
• Tooltips work only under very specific circumstances
  
• The scene graph tab will randomly bleed through other tabs
  
• F12 ( maximise current view ) does not work
  
• Mouse wheel only works on some scrolled panes ( and usually only in one direction )
  
• Setting font size in the editor causes hard crash ( option was removed instead of fixing )
  
• Model/animation viewer/editor does not work it will only show random faces of a given model - which changes depending on viewing angle and animation frame ( Josh blames Nvidia, inspite of the problem also existing on AMD )
  
• etc, etc, etc.
  

 

I've actually stopped reporting most bugs, because the answer is almost always "It's somebody elses fault", even when demonstrably it's not. (Ie; It's nivida's fault, even though problem exists with all drivers. It's GTK's fault - even though the issue at hand is a custom widget rendered in opengl )

 

I've set up a windows computer that I plan to do any future map editing on, which is quite ironic as I backed the kick starter campaign because I wanted to make games for OUYA inside Linux (with my friend who uses a mac) - a privilege I ended up paying twice as much for while as every body else ( pro backer ftl ) and ultimately ended up not getting.

The state of the Linux editor such that I cant even make Linux games with out leaving Linux

[Olby]

Well first of all you have to distinguish between the editor and the engine. Because OP also complained about the engine. If the editor on Linux is not working then I would go to on to file an issue with Kickstarter. Get together with other Linux users and force Josh to finish it. The problem you guys are having is the lack of Linux users. No matter how you look at it Windows and Macs are dominant on this planet, therefore we most likely have only a handful of active Linux users. Windows users are enjoying a working editor therefore most likely couldn't care less about others. Just take the matter in your hands, you have both Kickstarter and Steam. If after multiple complaints to Josh the matter is not solved you can team up and take it to the next level.

[MarkusR]

hmm, much of the issues seems that the problem is the used gui system or version conflict.

think it is easy to solved with a update at user or josh side.

[Guppy]

Also, Guppy I see your using Ubuntu Linux now. How are you liking it?

 

I hate it, "unity desktop" is with out a doubt the single most idiotic "feature" ever - but as to not give Josh any more ammo to shoot down bugs I try to make do. ( Installed a non-standard desktop? well that's properly the cause of the bug *closed* )

[Guppy]

[...]If the editor on Linux is not working then I would go to on to file an issue with Kickstarter. [...]

 

The campaign was funded almost 2 years ago - rewards being delivered 6 months ago I kinda think any we've passed the date on that.

[Olby]

I think you can always take it back and say the rewards are not up to expectations or promises. Also you act on Steam. Just get on the guns, making grumpy threads and posting a few disgruntled reviews will not affect anyone.

[tournamentdan]

 

Also, windows users? Why are they so ... ugh? We might never know.

 

Your right. It is so terrible being a windows user. I just hate it when I down load a application and it just works. No hacking required.

 

Because you seem to be a big fan of linux you are over looking the real problem at hand. The fact that linux is in alpha stage development.

Maybe linux should of attached some tags on their site saying that they were in alpha and practically nothing will work on it.

 

As a linux user, shouldn't you be used to hacking programs to make them work?

[YouGroove]

@Ronald :

LE3 has a demo version, so you can test and decide to buy or not to buy. At least you know what you buy.

 

You have new users coming on board and comparing UE/Crysis or whatever top-class engine to $100 worth indie game engine.

The indie scene and people that sell games is very diverse , you can find proprietary engines, and small ones , open source based also.

What matters is not : "hey i'm using UE4", if you can't sell a game it's useless, what matters i think is more : i could finish a good game and people enjoy it.

 

The campaign was funded almost 2 years ago - rewards being delivered 6 months ago I kinda think any we've passed the date on that.

@Guppy: Linux is complicated at final. But it should be priorized as Steam has more and more attention to Linux games, i don't know why it is not as priority as Windows ?

 

The state of the Linux editor such that I cant even make Linux games with out leaving Linux

Hotter demo is not a Linux game ? Let's hope LE3 to get more attention on Linux problems.

 

 

Just take the matter in your hands, you have both Kickstarter and Steam. If after multiple complaints to Josh the matter is not solved you can team up and take it to the next level.

Olby, it's easy to state, but the day you'll buy for example some 3D painting application advertised as Linux ready on the main page , if you find lot of bugs and if you are Linux user only , believe me you will feel not happy.

I think the texture lock problem was turning you upset , i can't imagine how crazy you'll get if you were using Linux version

 

 

It's problems, but there is many solutions as always :

- stop new features and fix Linux biggest problems.

- Hire someone to correct the bugs

- Put some editor parts as open source

- stop the Linux version as it means double work.

[MarkusR]

on topic,

my suggestion

a runtime requirements version test and the app/editor start or not.

for the steam store entry more details on what linux it was tested and should work and which not.

 

emergency solution, boot from usb stick with a working linux version for leadwerks editor.

[tournamentdan]

 

but as to not give Josh any more ammo to shoot down bugs I try to make do. ( Installed a non-standard desktop? well that's properly the cause of the bug *closed* )

 

Which should be the case. Do you want Josh to waste hours if not days of his time working on a bug only to find the only reason there was a bug was because of a problem with a unsuported distro?

[YouGroove]

What Linux system distros are supported on other 3D engines ?

[Guppy]

Your right. It is so terrible being a windows user. I just hate it when I down load a application and it just works. No hacking required.

 

Because you seem to be a big fan of linux you are over looking the real problem at hand. The fact that linux is in alpha stage development.

Maybe linux should of attached some tags on their site saying that they were in alpha and practically nothing will work on it.

 

As a linux user, shouldn't you be used to hacking programs to make them work?

 

 

In recent years the only "hacking" I've had to do ( I use Linux full time both professionally and private ) involved trying to get outlook to run ( gave up on that I now use the web version via chrome app mode ) and leadwerks.

 

Everything else I go to my app center click the program I want and then start running it.

 

But hey when the 90s call wanting their whine back could you be a doll and warn them about 9/11 and the Bush administration ? tyia

[Guppy]

Which should be the case. Do you want Josh to waste hours if not days of his time working on a bug only to find the only reason there was a bug was because of a problem with a unsuported distro?

 

How is that different from having to work out if the error is with window 7, 8, 8.1, 10 ?

 

The problem is once again that instead of using standard GTK components that have been battle tested on every damn linux machine everywhere he makes his own 'because reasons' these aren't tested on anything than a very specific condition ( namely american ubuntu LTS )

[Guppy]

What Linux system distros are supported on other 3D engines ?

 

I suppose you mean "major" ones and not Ogre3d, Irrilicth, etc..

 

At the time of the kickstarter - none, hence why I backed it - I am being told ( but I haven't tested it, since I find their licensing terms unacceptable ) that UE 4 works on Ubuntu LTS ( and derivatives, like kbuntu, mint, .. ), Fedora (Redhat's consumer version), Arch and gentoo.

 

For non Linux users, the important point here is to note gentoo as it's a compile everything your self kind of os where you get machine instructions on how to make it work ( .ebuild's ) so if it works here you pretty much be guaranteed it will work everywhere.

[YouGroove]

Well UE4 is open source , so you can't compare, but yes having the editor for example open source would make bug fixes fast made by users , like improvments and tools made by users. Perhaps it's something that could help LE3 ?

I was more talking about small ones like Esenthel or Irrlicht engines.