Why OpenGL?

[Marleys Ghost]

well, when you make your first billion, buy all your customers a new graphics card

[Rick]

well, when you make your first billion, buy all your customers a new graphics card

 

That's would be the problem though. Right now no one can make their first billion from casual games using LE because those casual gamers don't have the graphics card to pay for the game to make someone rich, which means they then can't buy all their customers new graphics cards. Chicken and the egg situation then.

 

I guess my point is that most of us are more hardcore gamers and often forget that there is a large market still for the casual gamer, even in 3D land. If one engine handled them both, then yay!

[Marleys Ghost]

That's would be the problem though. Right now no one can make their first billion from casual games using LE because those casual gamers don't have the graphics card to pay for the game to make someone rich, which means they then can't buy all their customers new graphics cards. Chicken and the egg situation then.

 

I guess my point is that most of us are more hardcore gamers and often forget that there is a large market still for the casual gamer, even in 3D land. If one engine handled them both, then yay!

 

 

not really .. as they have no game to buy then they can spend it on a GPU and all this talk of "market share" dont you actually need something to sell?

[macklebee]

and my point is: You use the engine that fits your needs. You don't buy an engine without researching its capabilities and restrictions, then complain that it doesn't have X feature. These constant requests for things that the engine doesn't currently do is acceptable but when they turn into demands that imply they cannot make a game with LE unless it has X feature is ridiculous or that the missing X capability prevents them from getting a fair share of the "market" is just plain BS.

[Rick]

Think of it in these terms. Remember years ago when you went to K-mart or Walmart or Target and they didn't sell food? You could get TV's, and clothes and toys and other various non edible items. One day someone said, "Hey, you should sell food too!". Now you might say, pick the right store that fits your needs. There are already grocery stores, go there. There is no need for these places to sell food also. And you are right, there isn't a need for them to sell food. But because they did, they are making millions of more dollars. They became the one stop shopping place and people love it.

 

The people requesting older hardware to work just want LE to be the one stop gaming engine that fits all your needs, and if you build it, they will pay. If I could develop high end or low end games using 1 engine that is easy to use, then it's easier on me because I don't have to learn multiple engines (I have little time anyway, like everyone else). I'll be more loyal to Leadwerks and therefore more willing to dish out more cash. My potential market is now bigger which is great!

[Marleys Ghost]

Nice tale, but I am guessing that K-mart or Walmart or Target had food to sell though

[Rick]

Nice tale, but I am guessing that K-mart or Walmart or Target had food to sell though

 

No they didn't. They realized the benefit of being a 1 stop shop and went out and made deals with food vendors to get food in their stores. Eventually they cut deals to make their own brands. They expanded some of their stores to handle this.

 

Growing up you would never dream of buying food in these stores. Now? It's great! I love it. I go to Target all the time to buy both food and clothing and electronics. Basically all my money on that stuff goes to them each month. I love it because it's still cheap and convenient, and they love it because they get all my money

 

I think the real concern you guys have is that Josh does this basically alone and if he spends time on this it means he's not spending time on some other bug fix. I get that and it's very valid. If Josh wants to do all this stuff I think he'll get to a point where he has to make a deal with the devil and get venture capital to hire people.

[Josh]

I think the real concern you guys have is that Josh does this basically alone and if he spends time on this it means he's not spending time on some other bug fix. I get that and it's very valid. If Josh wants to do all this stuff I think he'll get to a point where he has to make a deal with the devil and get venture capital to hire people.

Yep. The technology is in a good position now.

[macklebee]

The people requesting older hardware to work just want LE to be the one stop gaming engine that fits all your needs, and if you build it, they will pay. If I could develop high end or low end games using 1 engine that is easy to use, then it's easier on me because I don't have to learn multiple engines (I have little time anyway, like everyone else). I'll be more loyal to Leadwerks and therefore more willing to dish out more cash. My potential market is now bigger which is great!

 

Yes, but seriously majority of these lower end requests are not that. They are expecting to have LE graphics on these lower end cards. And when it doesn't, they will blame LE and Josh because it doesn't give them the results they see on high end cards. Also, where does it stop? if Josh gives support for these SM2 cards then someone is going to complain that they need something pre-SM2... it will never end.

[Rick]

Yep. The technology is in a good position now.

 

This is great news for us all! I just hope you are able to keep the price reasonable. Those people are vampires

[Marleys Ghost]

Actually my concern was it being a waste of time pampering to a conclusion based on "what ifs" and assumptions as a premise, generating extra work all round and ending up a fruitless endeavour. but now you have mentioned it you can add "not spending time on some other bug fix"

 

Yes, but seriously majority of these lower end requests are not that. They are expecting to have LE graphics on these lower end cards

 

 

sounds about right.

[Rick]

Yes, but seriously majority of these lower end requests are not that. They are expecting to have LE graphics on these lower end cards. And when it doesn't, they will blame LE and Josh because it doesn't give them the results they see on high end cards. Also, where does it stop? if Josh gives support for these SM2 cards then someone is going to complain that they need something pre-SM2... it will never end.

 

They have a term for this. I wish I could remember what it's called. It describes that way of thinking and people use that all the time in debates. Like when some people argue against gay marriage. They say, where will it stop? Can we marry animals next? I'm not saying you are saying that, but it's the same idea that they go to what the average person would consider to far, like in your Atari example. I know you said that trying to prove a point, but there is a logical cut off of the legacy systems that will be supported.

[Rick]

"what ifs"

 

The entire game engine business is based around "what ifs". Everything is just potential. If you ask me, he's financially better off supporting lower end systems than higher end systems. In the indie world more people make games for lower end systems than higher. I imagine Josh is not getting customers left and right because of the high end requirements, while Unity is getting customers left and right because you can make stuff on the iPhone.

 

You have to think of it this way. The more customers Josh can get the mroe money he'll have to make things better. If it takes lower the system specs (while still keeping the ability to be high end) to do that, then I say go for it.

[macklebee]

but there is a logical cut off of the legacy systems that will be supported.

 

yes... and for LE it is SM3 cards... but thats apparently not enough... so my point still stands...

[Josh]

High-end PC graphics will always be our flagship, but I think there are other platforms that will pay the bills better.

[VeTaL]

They are expecting to have LE graphics on these lower end cards. And when it doesn't, they will blame LE and Josh because it doesn't give them the results they see on high end cards. Also, where does it stop? if Josh gives support for these SM2 cards then someone is going to complain that they need something pre-SM2... it will never end.

 

Dont be so cardinal. Nobody would never ask pre-SM2. Also, nobody wound never expect high-quality render on the middle-end computers.

[Josh]

Nobody would never ask pre-SM2. Also, nobody wound never expect high-quality render on the middle-end computers.

Happens all the time, on this forum.

[Rick]

yes... and for LE it is SM3 cards or at least it used to be until Josh announced he is planning on wasting resources on SM2 cards...

 

What you refer to as "wasting resources", means cash in pocket for Josh, when he gets a flood of new developers who want to make games for the iPhone or older more casual games.

 

The important thing to take from this is the idea that Josh feels that LE is ready for expanding. That's a good sign for us all, and we should all be happy about that because that means resources.

[VeTaL]

Quote

Nobody would never ask pre-SM2. Also, nobody wound never expect high-quality render on the middle-end computers.

 

Happens all the time, on this forum.

 

Oh.. i thought that was addressed to me

[macklebee]

I think the biggest thing to draw in a flood of developers and cash for Josh will be a release of a game. Its funny that the game about to be released using LE was basically created using 2.23 or 2.24 by someone who wasn't worried about some X feature capability that LE was missing or complained that lack of SM2 cards support would mean their game wouldn't grab a market share.

 

And Vetal, the comment wasn't directed towards you but the rest of the people that continuously make this complaint. You would be surprised by how many people buy the engine then complain that it will not work on their old POS computer or the game they make will not run on their friends old POS computer. Surprisingly alot of people do not even look at the current requirements needed for LE before purchasing...

[VeTaL]

Maybe you should make a large post, that would warning people not to mention it?

 

No: i tested this engine a lot, watched a lot of video, discussing about it with lot of people. If needed, i can update my hardware, thats not a problem, but i'm afraid of gamers, who wouldn't be able to play a game.

[Rick]

Its funny that the game about to be released using LE was basically created using 2.23 or 2.24 by someone who wasn't worried about some X feature capability that LE was missing or complained that lack of SM2 cards support would mean their game wouldn't grab a market share.

 

That is funny, but the game also isn't released yet. People complain about these missing features or bugs because it means we have to create our own "hacks". If you get enough of these "hacks" in a game it can start to make bugs appear. Just getting a game released means very little if the game is bug ridden or bad. So let's not pat ourselves on the back just yet. (I have a better saying for that but I'll keep it clean) In the same breath, us developers do need to learn how to work around missing features and bugs to get anything completed and just hope we did it correctly so there aren't any killer bugs that pop up.

[macklebee]

well thats why all games have the information on them of what the minimum/required specs are needed to play the game...

 

and it wouldnt make a difference... people will still request it... just like they are going to request preSM2 once they have SM2 capabilities...

[Pancakes]

in the future people will have giant super computers in their community that are plugged into the global network - meanwhile all the Ipads of the household will act basically as really fancy remote control monitors.

 

Therefore I honestly think in about 10 years hardware will not be a concern at all and consoles will basically be made obsolete as well.

 

In other words visually I think Leadwerks has got the right idea. And I'm glad it's simple to code too. It's basically the same as using blender. Though I dream of the day it has Kismet/Flowgraphs too. But that's just me.

[macklebee]

That is funny, but the game also isn't released yet. People complain about these missing features or bugs because it means we have to create our own "hacks". If you get enough of these "hacks" in a game it can start to make bugs appear. Just getting a game released means very little if the game is bug ridden or bad. So let's not pat ourselves on the back just yet. (I have a better saying for that but I'll keep it clean) In the same breath, us developers do need to learn how to work around missing features and bugs to get anything completed and just hope we did it correctly so there aren't any killer bugs that pop up.

 

i guess some of us dont consider having to program something we want as a "hack"... unlike people who think if its not a LE command then it must be a hack to get something done... or an LE bug when a command doesn't do exactly what they want, but rather it does exactly the way it is described to do...