Guest Red Ocktober Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 while the latest version of LW has added some really great stuff, it seems as if something has been lost in the process... i dunno exactly what, but it seems as if there was a 'flavor' (for lack of a better word) that would identify screenshots taken from any LW scene as being uniquely Leadwerkian... the new stuff seems to have lost a lil of that uniquely LW air... i really don't need lua... c++ and/or blitzMAX is good enough... i don't need the new terrain features (as cool as they be)... my game takes place on the water... and speaking of the water... although i've tried adding moving waves to the new stuff, something is still missing... the old waves and foam on the water really works... also, the new underwater caustics are nice, but looking up at the surface from underwater, the old water has the new stuff beat here too... (guess i got hooked on that old water tut and demo)... anyways... i'm seriously loooking at finishing up my game using a prior version... until the new version gets a lil more 'settled', and gets some decent looking ocean water effects... 2.23 seems to be a lil more of a stable, know quantity... it aint gonna change any more, so that the platform i'll probably be settling on for the first sub game... i really can't wait any longer to get this thing done... the attached shot (and the one in the gallery) is taken from version 2.23... one of my subs dropped into the water off the LW archipeligo... --Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Betke Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Well I think the quality of graphic highly depends on the used assets. If you don't need certain features it doesn't mean others don't need too. Todays engines have an wide overlapping pool of features because graphics got just to a certain point. So they offer features for every kind of game-makers. If you only need a very specific kind of stuff you'll be better off coding your own minimal-slick engine. Something like Firefox. With extensions. I can totally understand your optinion about water. I don't like the surface too after looking at Crysis water for over a year and it's abilities for different looks. Maybe it'll be changed on some point. But you also should consider doing your own water solution if the ocean shader has such a high impact to your overall look of your game. Quote Pure3d Visualizations Germany - digital essences AAA 3D Model Shop specialized on nature and environments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Red Ocktober Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 If you don't need certain features it doesn't mean others don't need too.you're absolutely right... nowhere did i say, or did i ever mean to give the impression that noone else needed the new stuff in 2.3... it's just me... i don't need to build a forest, i don't need a road system... i don't need maxwell's realistic lighting... everything in 2.23 seems to meet the requirements of the current project... good looking water, sky, subsurface, some particles, and the ability to implement logic to make it all into a game... that's all i'm saying... now if i were making something like penumbra... or an indoor shooter... or even an outdoor shooter set in the tropics, in the mountains, or on mars... 2.3 would be ideal... but for a naval sim, it just has a lot of stuff i don't need... and it does water poorly... 2.3 will undoubtedly improve on these things in the near future and by the time we arrive at 2.4, but right now the latest version is still a moving target, feature wise... and code wise If you only need a very specific kind of stuff you'll be better off coding your own minimal-slick engine you'll soon discover that LW isn't the game engine in the sense that you think it is... it'll be up to you to implement the game engine for the particular game you want to make... that is, unless you plan to run your game using the lua scripting engine, or run your game entirely in the editor with lua scripted logic driving it... But you also should consider doing your own water solution if the ocean shader has such a high impact to your overall look of your game. i have... i've written a few... in 3DRAD, Blitz3D (with shader extensions and without), BlitzMax (with miniB3D extensions), heck i even did one in DarkBASIC... take a look at the attached pics for eamples some of em in action... and i've licensed one that really looks nice (Aquatica, but so far i've been unable to integrate it into LW)... and if it were just a water solution i was looking for, the last screenshot looks like a pretty good water solution to me (the one outta torque)... so ya see, it's not just a matter of a water solution i'm looking for... LW has some really decent lighting and shadowing effects... and i can use the terrain and the integrated physics... plus, LW promises to be cross platform... finally... i'm not even a conversant shader coder... adapting one of the examples from nvidia would take me forever to get working in josh's system... so... i guess i'm here for the long term... i'm just choosing to use an earlier version for this particular project... and so far, 2.23 doesn't look all that bad --Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixel Perfect Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 I agree with you Mike in as much as I too have little to no requirement for LUA as I'm quite happy to code everything in C++ but I think Josh needed to have his Editor appear more dynamic and that was the driving force behind the introduction of the scripting language to show people the power of scripted objects. For the artists and the less experienced programmers it does give them something more realistic and fun to play with as well as being a valid game development language for those with less ambitious projects. For me in many respects the 2.3 editor was a step backwards as it's forced me to have to use LUA with the removal of the generic properties editor and as I now hear the removal of ini file support in the not too distant future! This somewhat contradicts the assurance Josh gave prior to release that people not wanting to use LUA wouldn't need to. However, I might well end up being glad of LUAs inclusion though even if it's only for some high level scripting of AI. With regard to the water, I agree the water looked nicer in old versions of the engine but I see no real reason why those shaders couldn't be made to work in 2.31 with a little persuasion. You might need to invest in a crash course in shader fundamentals and or elicit the help of someone who is shader savvy; but I'm sure it could be accomplished fairly easily. I think Josh is aiming at a FFT solution eventually but appreciate that with Josh's lack of road maps and timescales you might not want to wait that long. It's not a problem for me and probably many others. If you can handle going back to some of the bugs that existed in the older versions then I guess that's a viable option for you. Good luck. Quote Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Red Ocktober Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 but I see no real reason why those shaders couldn't be made to work in 2.31 with a little persuasion. you're probably 100% right Pix... the old shader should be able to work with the new version... like you also said, i really should byte the bullet and learn what these new fangled shader thingees are all about --Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixel Perfect Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 i really should byte the bullet and learn what these new fangled shader thingees are all about --Mike I think I need to sign up to that learning curve too Mike Quote Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancakes Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 I need Lua. And at the same time I would like to see Leadwerks water and sky to receive some love. Also being a Crysis nut. Quote Core I5 2.67 / 16GB RAM / GTX 670 Zbrush/ Blender / Photoshop CS6 / Renoise / Genetica / Leadwerks 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flachdrache Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 (edited) tbh all i hear and read is about photorealism, high level AI and crysis - nothing of this means something to me, in fact the crysis fanbois need to shut up or at least come up with a proper solution for atmospheric scattering ... for a start. Actually the constant whining about photorealism annoys me - go on and mod that engine, i know you have the power ... you can do it. I guess i simply call these crysis lovers "blinkys" from now on. back to topic : I too need a nice oceanplane, by using the tag::texture commands it is working quit nice and "out of the box" -> see the refraction_tutorial with the reference to the LUA refraction sample. imho the vtf ocean doesnt looks that good + it simply looks broken on ATI cards since those prefer R2VB (it was notet that "all" HD version do use vtf but my HD3850 cant do). However, the old ocean doesnt has reflection/refraction effects iirc so i would start by changing the watershader and add the specular waves but if you have access to a lib like Aquatica - using this would definitive the better road to go. hth PS : i dont "disrespect" fanbois in general, its just part of being a great game - constant whining is not. Most people know what i think about photorealism ... beside, its damn expensive. Edited March 13, 2010 by JTimm Quote AMD 64 X2 Dual 5k - 4GB - XFX GForce9800GT - nv196.21 - WinXP Sp3 zBrush4R2 - Silo2Pro - Unwrap3DPro - Gile - MaPZone2.5 Xxploration FPS in progress ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancakes Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 tbh all i hear and read is about photorealism, high level AI and crysis - nothing of this means something to me, in fact the crysis fanbois need to shut up or at least come up with a proper solution for atmospheric scattering ... for a start. Actually the constant whining about photorealism annoys me - go on and mod that engine, i know you have the power ... you can do it. ;) I guess i simply call these crysis lovers "blinkys" from now on. Where is this disrepect coming from??? Quote Core I5 2.67 / 16GB RAM / GTX 670 Zbrush/ Blender / Photoshop CS6 / Renoise / Genetica / Leadwerks 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughty Alien Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 ..i absolutely understand you Red...only reason why I have moved away from 2.23 is nVidia drivers issue Josh mentioned to me, so I have moved to latest version..however, I must say that version 2.23-2.28 executing animations faster than 2.3x version...i dont know what is the reason, but same characters (just character, no other media or geometry present) and FPS is higher on 2.23 than 2.3x ... also i have noticed changes in AppSpeed() command in sense that everything worked in 2.23-2.28 doesnt work with 2.3x in sense that i dont have constant speed motion anymore..so..check drivers compatibility with 2.23 or at least tru to use s.28 (it has no issues if im not mistaken).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Red Ocktober Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 so..check drivers compatibility with 2.23 or at least tru to use s.28 (it has no issues if im not mistaken).. will do... and thx for the info NA... --Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 I saw an FFT water implementation using OpenCL at the Khronos booth, and it was really beautiful. Trying to find the demo. That's what I want to use. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancakes Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 I saw an FFT water implementation using OpenCL at the Khronos booth, and it was really beautiful. Trying to find the demo. That's what I want to use. you mean you're going to include it in the SDK/Editor? That would be very awesome. Quote Core I5 2.67 / 16GB RAM / GTX 670 Zbrush/ Blender / Photoshop CS6 / Renoise / Genetica / Leadwerks 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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