Leadworks or not?

[Ion Zone]

I'm getting DarkBASIC Pro and I'm trying to decide what to get at the moment, Leadworks seems like a beautiful system, but is it as easy to use as the DarkBASIC plugins seem to be? I want to create a lush game world on a budget and would like to know which way to go.

[Joh]

Check the wiki to have an idea about it. http://www.leadwerks.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

[Canardia]

I'd say Leadwerks Engine is the easiest engine of all to use. It has also all features integrated which you need to make a game, while with DarkBASIC Pro, you need to buy seperate add-ons (DarkPhysics, DarkLighting, DarkASCII, etc...) for each feature.

[DaDonik]

I'm a former DarkBasicPro user and i'd say take Leadwerks.

You don't even have shadows in DBPro, without messing around...in LE it's simpler

[Pixel Perfect]

Leadwerks is an integrated rendering, physics and animation solution which is highly stable and capable of graphical quality equal to or better than most commercial engines out there if you're prepared to put the work in. I does require coding though so you need to be a coder or team up with one. In my opinion, having worked with both Dark Basic Pro and DarkGDK, Leadwerks is by far the better option. Dark Basic on the face of it, along with all the pluggins, looks initially very attractive but in reality suffers from major bugs and issues non of which have ever really been sorted out or (again in my opinion) look likely to be. Leadwerks has a far better structured API and supports a range of development languages. The choice is yours and I'd recommend you look at other engines too but I really advise against going down the DBPro route as you are likely to waste a year of your life before you realise this for yourself!

[Ion Zone]

That sounds fantastic! Two questions though, it doesn't sound like DarkBASIC Pro is supported at all, this is kinda important as C++ is an awful lot harder, and more time-consuming, to program in than DarkBASIC. The second is, does Leadworks have things like grass, plant, and tree generators built in or available as plugins? I really would like to build worlds where the plants look alive, rather than copy-pasted. (I find repeated patterns very distracting)

[Ion Zone]

Is there another coding platform that works and which is as good as DarkBASIC or better? I don't want to have to go learn C++!

 

Also, can your gaming engine support games with 2D graphics (Silly question)?

[cassius]

You can use blitzmax with Le, its a much better version of basic than dbpro and just as easy to use.

EDIT: By the way, you need a goood graphics card to run Le. sm3 at least.

[Canardia]

You should really develop most of the game in Lua, and use C++ or BlitzMax only for a special functions which need more speed.

[AggrorJorn]

if C++ is too hard, you can make your game entirely in Lua. Thats what I'm going for. Leadwerks dosn't have a tree generator but when you buy a tree pack you can make different Vegetation layers. That is integrated in the leadwerks terrain editor.

[Ion Zone]

but when you buy a tree pack you can make different Vegetation layers. That is integrated in the leadwerks terrain editor.

 

I dunno, that sounds a bit like it would run out of variation fairly quickly.... What is Bliz3D's tree plugin like? Could I add the trees and plants made in it to Leadworks?

 

*Edit*

 

Lua looks a bit crazy, you have to build it yourself!

[gordonramp]

'I want to create a lush game'

'Lua looks a bit crazy, you have to build it yourself'

Lua is about the same learning curve as DBPro. Having used DBPro for years myself, I'd agree with Pixel Perfect and others that if you are starting out and it is a choice between DBPro and the Leadwerks Engine then go with the LE. and unless you are already skilled in C++ or Blitz Basic then learn Lua. There's plenty to get you going on these forums and the results will be better than DBPro can produce in my opinion. I might add, documentation for Lua in the LE is lacking (It was promised but hasn't eventuated so far) but people are helpful and you can muddle through to produce something very cool if you have an enquiring mind.

[Rick]

I don't understand the fear that follows C++ from beginner programmers. C/C++ was the first language I taught myself because it's the premiere language used in video games. In my book, if you shy away from learning C/C++ because it's "hard" then you'll probably shy away from actually finishing a game because that's even harder. I say don't shy away from learning C/C++. Learn it. It's so flexible and has so many free libraries out there for it that it's basically required. Even all these engines you see that are script based, at the core they are C/C++ running those scripts.

 

If you understand programming concepts already learning the syntax of C/C++ isn't that bad. It will present you with so much more freedom in other programming aspects that you are missing out by not learning it really.

[Ion Zone]

I do have C++, but it is so buggy and unhelpful I might as well not! It is a very old beginners version of C++ VB6, though. I think what most people hate about it is the amount of code you need to make it do anything, which is quite large from what I gather. I will try Lua, if I can get it to work! Though a quick browse through their plug-in installation instructions makes me think it isn't for beginners.

[Rick]

I do have C++, but it is so buggy and unhelpful I might as well not! It is a very old beginners version of C++ VB6, though. I think what most people hate about it is the amount of code you need to make it do anything, which is quite large from what I gather. I will try Lua, if I can get it to work! Though a quick browse through their plug-in installation instructions makes me think it isn't for beginners.

 

Yeah, that's old (but really doesn't effect the language much). Go download Visual Studio 8 C++ Express Edition.

 

The amount of code? You are confusing libraries with languages. C++ is far more compact than BMax (ie. less typing, less code). As far as LE is concerned it's the same amount of code (note C++ will be less characters because of it's syntax). The concept people coming from .NET or BMax need to learn is the difference between a language and a library/framework. C++ doesn't come with a library itself, but there are tons of libraries out there you can use with it (like LE for instance). I can see how this might be overwhelming at first and I know that when I wanted to create a window in C++ on my Windows machine I was floored that you couldn't and it required a library. You needed these other libraries. The more you learn about this stuff the better off you are.

 

Anyway, I'm a big C++ guy and don't feel you can go wrong with it

[Ion Zone]

0k, I'll try that too, but only if it has a proper debugger this time! C++ 6 only tells you that there is a problem, not where it is or how to find it! And half the time the problem is C++ 6 (And this is just me adding a messagebox that pops up when you click on a button!).

 

What does everyone else think about a beginner using C++? I've heard you really need to start with BASIC.

[AggrorJorn]

0k, I'll try that too, but only if it has a proper debugger this time! C++ 6 only tells you that there is a problem, not where it is or how to find it! And half the time the problem is C++ 6.

 

What does everyone else think about a beginner using C++?

I never really programmed before when I started with the C++ tutorials. I don't think it can be much easier then with Lua. When you are more of a code dabbler/puzzler, Lua is more ideal because you can test it directly in the editor.

[Rick]

I find Lua much harder to program in simply because the lack of debugging tools. I can step through a C++ program line by line to find logic errors and runtime errors. I can't do that with Lua. I can't stand messing my code up with Print/Notify to find bugs. It's so crappy and inefficient.

 

 

I've heard you really need to start with BASIC.

 

It sounded like you already knew BASIC. If you do then go the next step.

[Ion Zone]

Ah, I only know a little bit, that's why I wanted to start very small (Also, it would be nice to make some sort of simple little game straight away, which you can with DarkBASIC).

[mathfly]

I think good documentations, good tutorials whit explatnations, Help a lot to get your feet wet. and walk alone. The things i like whit DBpro is they re document evry command whit exemples, and sort by categories(3d, sound, images). After the engine brake the limit of your mind whit all this bugs .

 

I m in the same situation iknow well dbpro.

and want go to Bmax or c++ But dont really where to start. c++,lua, framework, ect ...

[Pixel Perfect]

C++ is so easy to use, especially if you initially just program in a procedural style. Then once you feel confident in that then you can move into Object Oriented programming in a language which has better support than most. If your putting the effort in to learn a language then why not learn the worlds number one game programming language (its no coincidence that C++ powers more game engines than any other language and is almost exclusively used by the professionals). It also has more code libraries available than most other languages for when you want to expand your horizons.

 

It doesn't mean of course that you couldn't use other languages. BlitzMax and C# are both viable alternatives and Lua to a more limited extent so long as you're not doing anything that requires real speed and lots of intensive processing. Go with whatever you feel most comfortable with I guess; but be prepared to put a lot of work in.

 

Ricks previous statement was a correct one when he said ... 'if you shy away from learning C/C++ because it's "hard" then you'll probably shy away from actually finishing a game because that's even harder.'

 

As an aside though, VC++ 6 was a stable professional compiler/IDE with excellent debug capability and was/is still used by many professional software houses around the world. So if you were having problems I suspect it was your lack of understanding rather than any inherent issue with that compiler. I still have a copy on my PC although I'm using 8 now.

[Ion Zone]

It was the beginners version rather than the full thing - I was alternately getting an error and not getting an error when I wrote MessageBox("Message"); in the same exact place - it would often change when I altered the message slightly without any obvious reason or use of possible problem punctuation. It really annoyed me

[gordonramp]

C++. I had a look at it and found it unnecessarily complicated. Two pages of code to write what Basic could do in a few lines. And the syntax... so illogical. Surely not the programming language of the future.

[Pixel Perfect]

With complexity and flexibility comes complication and I'm sorry but you would have no modern day gaming engines if they'd had to be written in Basic. Whilst I don't pretent to understand most of the mathematics of Astro Physics I wouldn't advocate they restrict themselves to using Algebra to write it.

 

But C++ is only as complicated as you want to make it ... look at the examples in the wiki, are the C/C++ examples really much more complicated than the BlitzMax? A few curley braces { and arrow symbols -> may look a bit alien to start with but after a few days of using them you'll be completely used to it.

 

But again, there is nothing wrong with the other languages so long as your expectations and design don't exceed their capabilities. This is also true of C++ and at times C++ programmers will have to resort to assembler routines to glean that extra bit of speed.

 

BlitzMax, C# or even Delphi are good options and quite capable of producing advanced game engines which will run at good speed. Lua is not and I would strongly advise against it for anything other than higher level scripting (which was what it was originally designed for) or the simplest of games. Mainly on the basis that Lua just has no good debugging tools which are essential for anything that isn't simplistic and also the fact that it will crawl when trying to do anything intensive in comparrison to the other languages.

 

It's horses for courses, with the bottom line being making your game with something like First Person Shooter Creator where apart from maybe a little scripting you can pretty much graphically build your game without ever having to resort to coding.

 

But in the game design world one thing is certainly true... you only get out what you have put in! Your game will very much reflect the complexity and quality of its underlying engine and that in part is a reflection of the programming language it is written in.

 

I don't want to sound like I'm a C++ purist or anything, at times I find elements of C++ coding tedious, it's just that over the years of programming I have not found another language which offers quite the same flexibility and raw performance that C++ provides. This is genuinely my best advice to anyone starting out with a real desire to program games, and it's Games Industry Standard which is another big reason for going down this line.

[Rick]

C++. I had a look at it and found it unnecessarily complicated. Two pages of code to write what Basic could do in a few lines.

 

Again, I think you are confusing language with library. That few lines of Basic to do something complex is a library at work, which behind it has the 2 pages of code.

 

That's like saying in .NET I can make a form simply by deriving from the Form class. In C using Win32 API it's 100 lines of code to get the same. That has nothing to do with the language. That's the library. The .NET Form class has hundreds of lines of code behind the scene that was setup already for you. That's what a library is. The equivalent C++ library would be the exact same. In fact it is. You can use .NET with C++ and the difference is basically nothing.

 

And the syntax... so illogical. Surely not the programming language of the future.

 

When you first learn something, many times you find yourself questioning why it's done in what would seem to be an illogical manner. Yet as you get more and more into it, you realize that it's more efficient and that's why it's done that way. Do you enjoy typing the word function and end that much? Why do that when you can just use {}. That's obviously less typing, and if you are making a game it will have thousands of lines of code and all the white space on the screen is valuable. Why clutter it up with full words like 'function', 'end', or 'then'. Sure they are logical but they are not very efficient.

 

In short C++ is the past, present, and future. It's been around for a long time and isn't going anywhere soon. That's like saying desktop computers will be extinct and laptops will rule the world. No they wont, because the desktop computer will always have the performance boost over a laptop. This is what C++ has. It's the perfect mix of human readability and performance. The games that are pushing the boundaries will always use C++.