Porting To Xbox

[Shard]

I've seen and heard talk about porting games to the Xbox 360 around the forums and I'm wondering what is stopping Leadwerks from doing this?

 

I think I read in Josh's blog once that Leadwerks first needs to develop a commercial game before it can get a license to develop for the Xbox.

 

What are the challenges (code, tech, coporate or otherwise) that are holding back the engine from going multiplatform?

 

After having looked at all the "popular" engines capable of porting to the 360 that are within an Indie Developers budget, I found that non of them compared to Leadwerks.

 

Does Josh have any plans for going in this direction?

[Rick]

What are the challenges (code, tech, coporate or otherwise) that are holding back the engine from going multiplatform?

 

You can't lump every platform together. Those console people are picky about the games created for their systems. Yet another reason I dislike consoles compared to PCs. I'd like to determine if a game is worth it or not.

[Josh]

Even if an XBox version of Leadwerks was supported, you would still need to already be a successful game studio to even get an XBox development license.

[Shard]

Even if an XBox version of Leadwerks was supported, you would still need to already be a successful game studio to even get an XBox development license.

 

Could you elaborate a little bit about what this means?

[paramecij]

Could you elaborate a little bit about what this means?

I think it means they first check you out if you're the real deal ie. a real registered company/studio, preferably backed by a publisher and most importantly, made some SHIPPED commercial titles, then if they like your company website you can fork out something like $50.000 for a dev-kit, and when you're done finishing the game they evaluate it and if it works, and wont do shame to their console they work out with you a % of the profits you'll share with them selling the game.. I think this is the sony way (or at least was). MS being the underdog was more desperate for developers so it was easier to publish a title on their platform (also easier to develop). As i gather now, for 360 you can develop (although with limited access) with XNA on the PC for both platforms, buy a <100$ subscription and submit a game for review, if it passes you can sell it on xbox arcade, then maybe you can make enough for getting a full devkit?

 

But if LE could be ported to DirectX then it would be possible

 

 

(on a side note. 1 shipped title seems to be the most common minimum requirement for a job in the game industry, sort of like a closed circle

[Rick]

LE could make an XNA version and it would be much easier, but that'll only be on that online thing with XBox. If you want a CD sold in stores you can't do that with XNA. That's where they get a little pickier.

[Josh]

The cost of the dev kit isn't bad. I think it's below $10,000, which is nothing if you are able to use it in the first place. The hard part is convincing Microsoft that you should be able to buy it, and to do that you have to already be a successful game studio.

[Shard]

The cost of the dev kit isn't bad. I think it's below $10,000, which is nothing if you are able to use it in the first place. The hard part is convincing Microsoft that you should be able to buy it, and to do that you have to already be a successful game studio.

 

 

Ah I see.

 

How would this work if we wished to use it with Leadwerks?

 

In theory, if once of us got a studio going and had a commercial game out and all that jazz and got the dev kit and wanted to use Leadwerks with it?

 

Also on a side note, I think the whole "successful game studio" thing has to be a pretty low bar, considering how bad some games are on the 360.

[Josh]

If you could get a development license from MS, and we had an XBox version, then you would be good to go.

[Shard]

If you could get a development license from MS, and we had an XBox version, then you would be good to go.

 

 

Ah I see. Are there any plans for you to develop and Xbox version? Would it take long?

 

The reason I ask is that just having Xbox portable in the engine description will attract more customers and for those of us who aspire to publish it to the Xbox wouldn't have to rewrite our code after we publish the our "first commercial game"

[Josh]

I don't have any plans to begin working on this.

[Canardia]

I think you could use XNA to write a LE clone on XBOX, and wouldn't need any developer license that way.

You don't need to sell CDs in shops, as you can sell the games online from your own web site.

I bought also Crysis that way and got much more bonus material for the same money as opposed to the CD version.

And I can burn all the discs to CDs with my DVD Burner, and even have 10 backup copies which normal CD versions often don't allow since they have hardware copy protections.

[Raziel_n2gc]

There should be at least one shipped title made with LE.

Porting middleware is a much more complex process compared to a game studio (even indie) requesting a dev kit.

There are low budget debugger dev kits for 2000$ from Sony but you need reputation or at least a decent budget. (publisher)

In fact there is no way Sony will even talk to you if you are not legal registered in any form.

But it isn't that hard like it sounds. If you have done a good job and can show a good DEMO not a concept!!! you will get through this all pretty fast.

The real happening and all the conditions can not be discussed due to NDAs, but by having access to the dev network, there are many tools you can use and combine with your own pipeline.

All of them are prepared for the Cell. LE is great for an indie to get in by making a good demo version. The real product will unlikely be using LE.

But having LE in the pool of console middleware could be great. As far as I know the guys from unigine engine made it and there is no shipped title so far. But some pretty good WIP you can not see on their site.

I am confused why there still is no mod team using LE for an own great game or did I missed something? And maybe Josh should concentrate on pushing a game out and bring it on the market. If you are starting to SELL something you become interessting for them, because they can SELL something too. It's all about $$$ and you need some to get started.

You need to register a company, an office (they won't let you handeling with the dev kits at home), contracts with employes, done projects.

So guys - the dream does go on - but STEAM is your friend right now...

[Josh]

There should be at least one shipped title made with LE.

Porting middleware is a much more complex process compared to a game studio (even indie) requesting a dev kit.

There are low budget debugger dev kits for 2000$ from Sony but you need reputation or at least a decent budget. (publisher)

In fact there is no way Sony will even talk to you if you are not legal registered in any form.

But it isn't that hard like it sounds. If you have done a good job and can show a good DEMO not a concept!!! you will get through this all pretty fast.

PS3 support is actually feasible for us, but it would not be priced as an "indie" product. We don't have as much connections to MS, but in a year or two I could see it happening.

 

I won't be undertaking anything like that as a lone programmer.

[Shard]

If you have done a good job and can show a good DEMO not a concept!!!

Definitely. Or better yet a near completion game. I know too many people who have "a great game idea" and nothing to show for it.

 

 

All of them are prepared for the Cell. LE is great for an indie to get in by making a good demo version. The real product will unlikely be using LE.

 

True I suppose. But I've taken to liking LE a lot.

 

 

And maybe Josh should concentrate on pushing a game out and bring it on the market.

 

Look into the LE Community Project

 

 

 

So guys - the dream does go on - but STEAM is your friend right now...

 

Indeed, Steam is always our friend.

 

Have anyone here published to Steam or know the process of publishing? I've looked into it but I didn't come up with much

 

 

 

PS3 support is actually feasible for us, but it would not be priced as an "indie" product. We don't have as much connections to MS, but in a year or two I could see it happening.

 

That sounds really good.

 

 

 

I won't be undertaking anything like that as a lone programmer.

 

God I hope not. Maybe you could invest in a cloning machine?

[Canardia]

God I hope not. Maybe you could invest in a cloning machine?

Those things are damn difficult and expensive to maintain. They demand you to move the furniture every week (even if you calculated the optimal position of them), buy new clothes every second week (although you bought clothes which were designed to last at least 2 world wars), and make you do all kinds of stuff which are highly uneconomical, just because they don't find it interesting to sit in front of a computer screen 8 hours a day with a beer bottle in their hand, and enjoy life!

[Rekindled Phoenix]

The real question is, How is Naughty Alien accomplishing the task of porting LE to Xbox360 and PS3?

[Josh]

Well, we may be looking at an XBox port sooner than I previously anticipated.

[Shard]

Well, we may be looking at an XBox port sooner than I previously anticipated.

 

Lol, ask and Leadwerks shall receive?

[Rick]

The real question is, How is Naughty Alien accomplishing the task of porting LE to Xbox360 and PS3?

 

I'm guessing he didn't. I'm thinking MS and Sony just saw his game and said, sure you can develop that on our system. Now would come the task of Josh getting an LE port going to make that work?

[Pixel Perfect]

That's my reading of the situation too

[Pancakes]

Consoles don't have much appeal to me. Console gamers think differently when they purchase games than PC gamers who log in to steam and see a pretty cool game that's $20 or less. Like Trine. I wouldn't have bought that out of Wal-Mart for $20 when I could get it on Steam for $5.

 

If a console gamer hasn't seen ads or reviews or heard hype of a game it might as well not exist to them. And a low priced, game that I haven't heard of is usually a no-no as far as purchasing goes. Even if it has lots of a good critical reviews on the box, critical reviews won't necessarily put me in the mood to purchase.

 

It's just something about the console, it doesn't appeal to me. I think it's because the entire context of the purchase is being strongly influenced by the identity of the console itself and by the block buster games sitting on the shelf next one another.

 

On Android or PC you can have your own personal context. And I think that can make a difference in people's perception of the value of a product.

[Rick]

I actually agree with you these days Pancakes. I actually don't even think I've every bought a console with my own money. Most of mine have been Christmas gifts from my parent. The PS2 was the last console my parents bought for me and I won a Wii (which I hardly play) from a raffle. I just refuse to pay $300+ for a gaming machine when my PC does all of that and more. Nothing pisses me off more than a console only title. It's just BS shady business by the console companies to try and get people to buy their system to play that game, when clearly every game on a console can be ported to PC.

[Mumbles]

I'd like it, if nothing else, to prove that really, well designed games play much better on the PC than they do on consoles. Certainly where I come from, the 360 is more prevalent than the PS3, so having a PC:360 comparison would have more weight than one between PC:PS3

 

In the early years, it started out sort of like elitism. The consoles were for the poor people who couldn't afford a proper computer, and if your parents couldn't afford a console, no doubt you ended up with a gameboy - or a puzzle book. The focus seemed to shift away from 'being a cheap alternative' at around about the time the original xbox came out (or at least, that's how it feels to me). Until the first Halo game, PC games just had that superior feeling - better gameplay, better visuals and of course, customisability. Whilst the last of those points still doesn't really exist, The original Halo brought the quality of PC games to the masses of those that wanted a cheaper machine. Knowing that were so many of those cheaper machines out there, and also knowing that it really was possible to design something of quality for those masses, that's when I would suspect that developers really shifted their focus towards the console market.

 

But for me, it's also somewhat personal, I've never really liked gamepads. How anyone could possibly play CoD 4 without the precision of mouselooking, I just don't know. We have two 360s in our house (because the 2 arguing little kids always wanted to use it at the same time - so we had to buy a second one). One of which became unused almost weeks after buying it. So, maybe if LE in the 360 is feasible, I'll be able to hijack the unused one. I've sort of moved away from my own point. 18 months after I'd bought cod4 for the PC, we now had a console copy too. It soon became obvious to me how the precision was solved - press and release LT, and the view will lock on to the nearest target within what appears to be like 30 degrees. Even with that, I just couldn't get my head around the two sticks at all, frequently, my view would just be chasing after the person I was trying to track - then I'd go too far, and have to correct it - and all the while there would be up and down movements I didn't want because the sticks were just so sensitive, even when the Y sensitivity was turned down. Then there was multiplayer, if anyone here wanted to play online, they'd have to pay Microsoft for the privilege - on top the ISP charges, so we never did. But knowing that the games were limited to 6v6 (in that particular game at least), in a peer-to-peer setup - and yet, by 1996 PC games were feeling the benefit of ditching that system of communications. I'll admit, you can watch a video of an xbox live game on youtube, and it doesn't appear to lag that much, and certainly not as bad as, probably over-exaggerated videos appear to show IW.Net being (in fact, most of those videos have, strangely, disappeared again).

 

it would also be interesting if multiplayer was possible on the xbox... without using xbox live. Some games I've seen supporting 'System link' but is it actually possible to just use TCP and UDP directly? As in pit a 360 and a PC directly against each other. Obviously, if it was possible you'd probably want some sort of option to only allow clients on the same platform - but there may be some cases where you just want to play other people in your house, with a mixture of consoles and PCs - especially in co-op environment, I couldn't think of anything better. But at the same time, those in the PC would probably have far better visuals. I mean, can a console go up to 2560x1600? And do they support SM 4.0? Of course, this whole proposition assumes that it's possible to get a 360 talking to a PC on your local subnet. I suppose that Naughty Alien is in the best position of anyone on this forum to know if that's possible.

 

That's my biggest reason for wanting to port to 360s, have a game that people can enjoy on any platform, co-operative or competitive - a game that would hopefully show that PC gaming is far from dead, possibly enjoyable, and move away from this idea of platform snobbery. So yes, I too would be in favour of having no more platform exclusive titles - especially from the bigger companies. Of course, at the present time, I'm in no position to build such a game, even if the platforms were able to communicate with each other.

[AggrorJorn]

Don't forget that the main reason for the consoles is, is that most people don't want to have the 'trouble' of games on their computer. Most people want a console, not because of its strength but because they know that when they buy a game, it will work on the console. They just don't want to have wonder if their computer can run it and if they need to have a better computer.

 

I am speaking as an owner of a high end computer, xbox 360 and a Playstation 3. I prefer gaming on pc because I like modding, tweaking, having more control over my game settings and the ability to play with higher framerates and quality settings. However a console gives me the feeling of really chilling out. When you get home from work or school, just drop on your couch and turn on the tv and console. Especially because I work al day long with a computer, it is sometimes nice to just not have to use the computer but a console which handles everything for you. Ofcourse you could connect your pc to the tv and use a gamepad, but it is not the same.

 

The light side to exclusives is that the big companies put in a lot of money to make good games and battle each others creativity. Innovative ideas are born at a much more quicker rate because of this. (although there is a lot cheap junk between it 2. B) )

 

There is also one other thing that the consoles are going to have an advantage from: Natal and Move. The computer doesn't have this. The mayority of the people will just buy this because it is new, it's fresh, it is a gadget. Even if it is not working as they proabably want it to work.