what do you want see in leadwerks 3.0

[VeTaL]

Because the modeling program can export .fbx, you can just register for the evaluation version and use that to make trees.

Hmm... Good idea.

 

But what about publishing rights?

[L B]

Because the modeling program can export .fbx, you can just register for the evaluation version and use that to make trees. No idea what the licensing terms on that would be.

That would be the end of Betke.

[omid3098]

what about SkinMorph?

[wailingmonkey]

omid3098...pretty sure Josh has this code 'done' but just not currently implemented in the engine for us (if I read you correctly, you're talking

about vertex animation support---based on morph targets from our 3d package of choice?).

[Michael Betke]

I have some very pretty ideas for the engine and its functionality and would like to contribute with a list. Some features are not present in other engines and i'm sure artists would love it.

But I guess this is the wrong place to post.

[AggrorJorn]

I would say that Micheal Betke, Josh said that he likes to see the opinions of other so that he can include them while still building the engine. lets hear what kind of features you would like to see in LE 3.0.

[gordonramp]

A major feature that I would like to see.. is facility for 'Lipsinc'. All new games now have talking characters. I just recently tried out the new release of FPSCreator with lipsinc built in. It's easy to implement and is a great improvement for the Gamer when interacting with NPCs. Instead of Characters standing there looking dumb, they come to life. Some form of lipsinc is essential for modern Game Creation.

[L B]

A major feature that I would like to see.. is facility for 'Lipsinc'. All new games now have talking characters. I just recently tried out the new release of FPSCreator with lipsinc built in. It's easy to implement and is a great improvement for the Gamer when interacting with NPCs. Instead of Characters standing there looking dumb, they come to life. Some form of lipsinc is essential for modern Game Creation.

I think lip synchronization is against Josh's mentality, and I agree with him on it: It takes an incredible amount of time to implement, various voice artists, and most of all, it's not needed! It can easily replaced by an off-screen voice-over or, honestly, with not-so-perfect animations.

 

@Betke: I'd really like to see that list too

[gordonramp]

I think lip synchronization is against Josh's mentality, and I agree with him on it: It takes an incredible amount of time to implement, various voice artists, and most of all, it's not needed! It can easily replaced by an off-screen voice-over or, honestly, with not-so-perfect animations.

Well, I haven't been monitoring Josh's mentality but like I said it's an essential part of 3D Game Creation these days.

[Rick]

Well, I haven't been monitoring Josh's mentality but like I said it's an essential part of 3D Game Creation these days.

 

When did games becomes movies? This trend needs to stop. When lip sync technology becomes that important for a game then we are all doomed. Lip sync has no affect on gameplay. I don't think I'd ever call it essential. I would put many things above lip sync features.

[Pancakes]

well I would say lip sync is as essential as SSDO - in other words, you really don't need it, but it can make things very nice.

 

Rick. You're getting old. So am I. I hear what you're saying. But technology changes rapidly and games and technology are very closely related.

 

I still remember Final Fantasy 7. Deep in my heart I know normal maps aren't needed to make a great game. But still they "are needed". Note the quotation marks.

 

I remember mario64 and zelda64. Deep in my heart I know mass vegetation isn't needed. But every since Crysis "it is needed". Again note the quotation marks.

 

Josh said he wanted to make Leadwerks 'perfect' this time. Maybe he was joking maybe he wasn't. If it is to be as close to perfection as possible he's gonna want to think about lip sync. It would dramatically increase immersion factor for any game with speaking characters in it thus making Leadwerks even cooler to people who see it.

 

I hadn't thought about lip sync at all. Because I am like you I didn't prioritize it one bit. But now that gordanramp mentions it, it would be kinda nice It could help to bring characters to life.

 

Well anyways. Rick, you weren't a console gamer were you? I think you missed some great examples of the importance of character dialogue if you were only on PC gaming in your youth.

[Rick]

My youth was console (we are talking the Nintendo's and Sega Genesis, and up to PS2. Once they started to cost what a cheap PC costs I stopped), the adult is PC. Character dialog was big, but I couldn't care about lip syncing, then or now. It's a nice to have, but not required to make good games. What is said in these dialogs is what's important. I'm hardly even looking at the characters in most games anyway. Mafia 2 wouldn't have been any less fun if their lips weren't moving. It's the storyline that people like, not if that characters lips are moving. It does help add to the realism, but these are games. We don't hardly even expect things to be real in them.

[gordonramp]

When did games becomes movies? This trend needs to stop. When lip sync technology becomes that important for a game then we are all doomed. Lip sync has no affect on gameplay. I don't think I'd ever call it essential. I would put many things above lip sync features.

Just shooting NPCs keeps games on a very superficial level. Add some plot and NPCs with the ability to communicate and Games can have some depth.

[Pancakes]

It does help add to the realism, but these are games. We don't hardly even expect things to be real in them.

 

that's not true

 

water, sky, physics, light, shadow, sound, animation, why not lip sync, - don't think of it as "like movies" think of it instead "like sockpuppets" their mouths move and they are much lower tech and non commercial than video games ever were. well anyways, it's up to Josh

[Canardia]

Those realistic looking games are often called Virtual Reality Simulations instead of games. Games can be anything, even a text mode game, and consoles can't run VRS. Crysis on a console only simulates a VRS, but it's nowhere as realistic as on gaming PC.

[Davaris]

If the players demand lip sync then it is essential. Though if it is difficult to do or very expensive, then I wouldn't bother with it as an Indie.

 

Now what I would be interested in, is text to speech technology. However I have no idea what libraries are available, or how much they cost. At any rate, something like that could probably be integrated into LWs, by anyone who wants it.

[L B]

If the players demand lip sync then it is essential.

If players demand anything out of a game, it isn't indie anymore. Indie is the beauty of development freedom, where the maker should enjoy the game as much or more than the user.

[gordonramp]

I like the idea of Game quality being on a par with Movies. Except interactive. Watching a Movie is 'One Way Traffic'.. You just sit there and receive. While a Game or 3D interactive content is Two way Traffic. One becomes immersed in a World in which there are choices to be made. This is the difference.. control, the Player has control of the choice making.. just like life. I think this is why people would rather play an interactive game than pay to watch a movie these days.. The more 'Real' we make the games, the more people are going to want to buy them.. That's the object, to get 3D Games as Real as possible. Then people don't have to 'Suspend their belief' to any great extent, the transition is seamless.

[Canardia]

I would love movies where I could throw some objects into the scene to make pranks with the actors

What would be cooler than to spawn a Predator into some soap opera, like "The Bold and the Beautiful" your mother is just watching

[Josh]

When did games becomes movies? This trend needs to stop. When lip sync technology becomes that important for a game then we are all doomed. Lip sync has no affect on gameplay. I don't think I'd ever call it essential. I would put many things above lip sync features.

I'm only interested in this for the sake of professional studios. Independent developers are unlikely to make use of it.

[Davaris]

If players demand anything out of a game, it isn't indie anymore. Indie is the beauty of development freedom, where the maker should enjoy the game as much or more than the user.

 

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But Indies can be and are just as much professionals, as people in the big studios.

 

If you want to make things for yourself, or for the art, then it's fine to do whatever you like. But if you want to make a living as an Indie and some people do, you have to understand, you don't work for your own pleasure, you work for the enjoyment of your players. So if they demand things and they do quite often, you have to listen to the ones that are the most profitable to listen to, or not sell much at all.

 

Its all about choices and consequences.

[Canardia]

The freedom of Indie is that they can do anything, they can even use a publisher if they want. Indie only means that they are independant of anything or anyone. LucasFilm is a good example of a Indie company which grew big.

[gordonramp]

I'm only interested in this for the sake of professional studios. Independent developers are unlikely to make use of it.

I find it surprising that you would say this. If Professional Studios would want Lipsinc in their games then of course Indie Developers are going to want the feature, so that their Games look professional.

Does this mean that some form of specific Lipsinc support is a consideration for Version3.0 because Professional Studios will most likely want to use it?

[Alessandro]

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But Indies can be and are just as much professionals, as people in the big studios.

 

If you want to make things for yourself, or for the art, then it's fine to do whatever you like. But if you want to make a living as an Indie and some people do, you have to understand, you don't work for your own pleasure, you work for the enjoyment of your players. So if they demand things and they do quite often, you have to listen to the ones that are the most profitable to listen to, or not sell much at all.

 

Its all about choices and consequences.

 

I agree with @Davaris. This is a problem I red in other blogs talking about LE. And this is the problem I'm finding about vehicles (no good functions for vehicle fine-tune, and no realisti behavior, but it seems that neither Josh or other LE responsible says anything about this: no comment, no discussion; many people talk about vehicle lack of functionalities, but it seems LE does not consider this).

 

I think, in this case, I can understand Josh only if his comment was concerning the priority for new feature implementation: obviously, we cannot expect to see EVERYTHING in LE 3, but I think if lip sync is a priority for LE customers, that functionality should be inserted in LE roadmap.

Can I see a LE 3 roadmap?

I don't think it is a good answer saying Josh implements functionalities of only "big studios". I can understand that, maybe, a big studio (which supply a lot of money to LE ;-) ) could get the priority for its requests, but I cannot hear that I can get a specific functionality will be implemented only if a big company will ask this. In fact, in this case, it seems my opinion/comment/request has no importance for LE company.

[Pancakes]

As much as I hate to admit this point, Josh is probably right. It sucks to admit it though. Anyways, if you show Josh a polished project that he likes, no matter who you are he'll probably work something about for some feature that you seriously need.

 

There is no need to ask Josh to have 'faith' in indie projects. Instead indie projects should just do our best. Then we can make arguments about our legitmacy when we have a real and polished project to show.