More Lua for 3D artists :

[Laurens]

The problem with providing a framework for non-coders is that you're potentially locking coders in a specific structure that may not suit their game. I would even go as far as saying that it is impossible to create a generic framework that perfectly suits all genres and matters of play. Even if you were to create "templates" for specific genres you would just be reinventing the wheel and you would be off better buying FPS Creator or Realm Crafter. While those tools do have more released titles, they all look and feel the same which is a major turnoff for me.

 

This does not mean that I don't think Leadwerks needs better documentation, a more intuitive user interface and a more streamlined art pipeline because it does, but Leadwerks 3 seems to address all those issues.

 

A second point I would like to raise again is that one of Leadwerks' major unique selling points is that it is not Unity in my opinion and nor should we move in that direction (to far). I bought this engine because the API is complete bliss and does not force me to follow a specific convention Josh dreamed up. Both Unity (and others such as C4 for that matter) do force you to follow the engine developer's paradigm.

[YouGroove]

Both Unity (and others such as C4 for that matter) do force you to follow the engine developer's paradigm.

 

Sorry, but anyone do any kind of game with unity.

It is that hard to follow the simple rule of putting code in the method named "FrameUpdate()" ?? And sorry but lof ot simple commands are as simple as in LE to program, it's fluid also.

 

LE3 will keep the full programmer side, and it is going to offer some Unity3D or UT3 scipting similarity , where is the problem ? programmers won't have to use the scripting system if they don't want.

And sorry, but i thik it's the way to go if simplicity is needed, with new scripting system and plugin possibility it's the way LE3 is going : more open to 3D artists.

And its not Unity, they have not exactly same features and sorry but the price is totally different also

Unity Pro is really a big big price, only possible for people making lot of money with their titles or people having lot of cash !

 

We don't say to LE3 to become FPS Creator indeed, this sort of template will be given to people making plugins for the editor that will generate the code ; this way 3D some artists will be happy to use some template made by some user and baught in the store !

 

Where is the problem to open up the engine and let some people making plugins or templates to help 3D artists ?

(Programmer keeping entirely their programming side)

[Laurens]

I did not mean to offend anyone.

 

Both Unity (and others such as C4 for that matter) do force you to follow the engine developer's paradigm.

 

Sorry, but anyone do any kind of game with unity.

 

I wasn't saying that. I was saying that you are forced to follow the engine developer's paradigm. For instance, in C4, your main application is required to extend a C4 class and compile your project as a DLL.

 

It is that hard to follow the simple rule of putting code in the method named "FrameUpdate()" ?? And sorry but lof ot simple commands are as simple as in LE to program, it's fluid also.

 

I find it highly undesirable to put all my code in one method. What advantage is gained by locking developers into this? What is keeping you from defining your own update method?

 

And its not Unity, they have not exactly same features and sorry but the price is totally different also

 

Where is the problem to open up the engine and let some people making plugins or templates to help 3D artists ?

 

The engine is completely open the way it is now, locking people into a paradigm forced on us by Josh would be closing it down. Mind you, that is not to say I am opposed to a plugin-model for the editor, I am impartial to that, but they are completely different things.

[YouGroove]

I find it highly undesirable to put all my code in one method. What advantage is gained by locking developers into this? What is keeping you from defining your own update method?

Here we talk about the high level scripting system , and in Unity you can go for C# also and developp as many classes as you want.

 

No worry about the thread , it's an open discussion, no need to close it, it is somewhat friendly for the moment

Like in real life each people is own life, each people is own point of view.

 

If with LE3 i will be able to only have to script my game behaviour and have all entities, game tweaks, lights automatically loaded, so have to only "attach" code to entities, i 'll buy it.

If it is not the case i'll continue with Unity 3D free, why ? because my goal is making the tetxures, models, and the game.

The less time i spend coding, the more time i have to do 3D objects and tweak gameplay.

 

My point of view and experinec with 3D engines is :

-I don't find pleasure at all programming shaders, complicated math routines, or other stuff, and i'm ok for gameplay programming indeed.

 

Its' really different with lot of people using LE2 i agree, and i don't have any problem with that !

I also don't ask LE3 to become some pure 3D visual artist tool also, caus it would be too much limited like some modding engines.

And LE3 have already the "open side" for 3D artists with new scripting and plugin systems, so both worlds : programming , 3D artists should be happy !

[Laurens]

If with LE3 i will be able to only have to script my game behaviour and have all entities, game tweaks, lights automatically loaded, so have to only "attach" code to entities, i 'll buy it.

 

This is already the case for the current version. Scripts are attached to classes and you can specify properties on individual instances. LoadScene loads all of these "automatically".

 

And LE3 have already the "open side" for 3D artists with new scripting and plugin systems, so both worlds : programming , 3D artists should be happy !

 

The current version does indeed not allow for plug-ins in the sense that you can't use them straight from the editor but I still don't see how Leadwerks is not "open". What would you define as an engine being "open"?

[YouGroove]

This is already the case for the current version. Scripts are attached to classes and you can specify properties on individual instances. LoadScene loads all of these "automatically".

 

Actually , you have to load the entties by name and depending on the name : place a light or place X or Y entitie. Than have some big table containing all dynamic NPC and manage their interaction.

Same thing for loading all the scene properties you have to sue some module "Framework" it is not standard , not loaded directly as you done it in the editor.

Perhaps i have misunderstood for the scripting part ? but its' in the beginner questions that i had all these responses showing me that you can't just attahc in LE2 the script in the entity to interact with

others , all previous stuff is needed. And LE3 will go in that direction with Lua where you'll have just to attach the script for game behaviour.

Or ask to Rick that knows a lot about Lua, he is the specialist and can reply about LE2 and Lua.

 

Once again we talk about Lua side of LE3 , the more 3D artist side (no compiler needed also) , not the C++ programming side, caus that programming side indeed will remain the core of the system to allow C++, .Net and other languages to use the engine as they like.

 

By "open" i just mean, more friendly and only gameplay to write without needing to write some standard framework loops or other stuff in Lua. One again we talk about Lua programming not C++ or C#

And LE3 already have that, so it will be ok for 3D artists to pick up the engine with Lua i think !

 

My responses where more to give answers to stephan360 that seemed to ask these sort of features, and perhaps he didn't understood theses

features were alreafy incorporated in LE3 ?

[paramecij]

I'm a programmer so my biggest grudge with LE2 is that it comes with too few models.. You can't even make a SINGLE decent game from those models!! .. LOL

 

What I would like best, is for LE3D a system where you could define a bunch of .xml files and call engine::meakArt() on them and be done with the whole asset production altogether, either that or maybe a partnership with dex-soft and arteria3d so there are more models to choose from.. Who wants to watch a bunch of blender tutorials and then spend time making a high poly version for normal baking while also learning photography for better textures..all this time spent just for a fancy crate (that has been done million times before) instead of solid color cube - yeah, but which could be fully interactive and motion controlled by now, doing a funny dance

 

 

 

I think game engines are meant for programmers, and tools are meant for artists to produce art in a suitable format for the engine to use. ..And recreational drugs are for fancy game designers to abuse

[macklebee]

agree completely paramecij... some of the requests here are getting ridiculous. seems like some of these so-called 'artists' need to either find someone to do the programming for them or just go back to something like fpscreator where they just add some random model to a scene where all the gameplay is already created for them and they can call it a game they created...

[Laurens]

Actually , you have to load the entties by name and depending on the name : place a light or place X or Y entitie.

 

This is incorrect. I don't know who informed you or you may have misinterpreted the information given to you.

 

LoadScene loads all the entities within that scene and runs their Lua scripts. That includes models, lights, the universe and everything No further code required.

 

Than have some big table containing all dynamic NPC and manage their interaction.

 

That's a very specific implementation and most certainly not a must. It depends on your requirements.

 

Furthermore I highly agree with:

 

I think game engines are meant for programmers, and tools are meant for artists to produce art in a suitable format for the engine to use

[Rick]

I think the missing piece with LE2 scripting that the artists will like in Leadwerks3D is the flowgraph system that let's you connect the scripts visually. I don't think artists will be scripting themselves in Leadwerks3D just like they really aren't in LE 2, but I think it'll make a market for programmers to make smaller specific scripts that artists can use/buy. Sure programmers can make those today but they are generally not that complex (not so much gameplay related) and if they are they generally won't integrate well with another programmers scripts because some specific interfaces were created by that specific programmer and nobody wants to tie themselves down to a specific programmers interface between scripts. So with Josh coming out with a common interface on how scripts should talk to each other programmers can create scripts that the artist/level designer will feel comfortable using to make complex game interactions because they know they share this common interface.

 

Sounds good on paper but I guess we'll see when Leadwerks3D comes out. We know that it's similar to things like Hammer (if you've ever done half-life mods) and that system allowed some fairly complex level design.

[YouGroove]

In fact for my part i was just asking Scripting as simple as in Unity 3D for interaction between characters and any other game stuff !

I like the way you implement things in the frameworks, it's simple , easy to understand.

I never asked full visual language, no , just simple script with a simple integrated framework for anything.

I don't have to go in details, just try Unity 3D free version and it's scripting system

If you have similar way of programming as simple in Lua with LE2 ,just show us the example ??

Caus until now the example i found, i didn't found simple interaction between an ennemys and player or NPCs simple without having to implement a main method and lot of stuff etc ...

I ask nothing in fact, let's wait how LE3 will work, and each people coming to the engine that is more 3D artist oriented , will see how they can do things and if they are okay or prefer

to use another engine line Unity 3D or other ?

[Laurens]

Interaction between "players" and "characters" is such a specific feature I would find it highly undesirable to be forced into Josh' paradigm as far as the implementation would go (I'm starting to feel like and old record player). You keep iterating you want everything to be "simple". Let's take that to the extreme so I can illustrate my point. In the most simple possible case whe have a button that creates a game for you. Slightly more complicated you can define a genre. Even slightly more complicated you can specify additional parameters such as number of units or available weapons. You can see where this is going.

 

Then there is Unity. Allows you a fair amount of control. More complex is Leadwerks. Allows even more control. And that is why I bought Leadwerks and not Unity. Because it allows me control to the degree I want.

[YouGroove]

I agree with you, we won't go to the "push" the button to make the game or some defined ammo/weapons variables , it is Templates in that case. (perhaps some people will wrfite oens

with future plugin system ?).

No i just talked about a standard framework controller that you can find in lot of 3D engines with Init() methode, FrameUpdate() methods for example, just that no more.

Some of us don't want to reinvent the wheel each time, and perfer to make the game as fast as possible : Only gameplay programming point.

 

You ask total control , that's your way of seeing game programming like lot of other people, but that's not the only way, that's the way you like, that's your way, not the way some others like me want or like ! That's your right to defend your point of view, and C++;C# will remain as they are ; all the work is dedicade to the programmer caus he wants total control and he likes to program !

 

But you can't prevent other people to gain some Lua framework or some Lua more 3D artist oriented capability "like" Unity 3D .

If we gain scripting in Lua allowing what allow Unity Scritping System it will be good for some bunch of people , specially with mobile targets !!

Mobile fast and easy game making "a la" Unity 3D is what some of us would seek, and just seeing lot of Unity 3D mobile games published and all people that have used it's scripting system :

Isn't it efficient and prooven to work even for 3D artists ? So why not LE3 with Lua going this way ?

 

For my part i have already the points to verify to know if i'll go for LE3 or not when it will come out !

Just let's wait for LE3 ...

[Rick]

I honestly think the current Lua implementation could be made more like the unity structure by the community, but unless it's officially supported by Josh I fear people won't use it.

 

Unity still has a lot of programming to it though. A better example I think for artists would be UDK with thier flowgraph.

 

I'm a programmer at heart and I like the way Unity has set their engine up in terms of providing the framework. I like not seeing an int main() and using predefined virtual methods. It's a nice and flexible framework and in no way defines how you make your custom game, but instead provides you with the framework that all games can be made with. Unity is much more friendly in that sense than UDK I feel.

[Laurens]

You ask total control , that's your way of seeing game programming like lot of other people

 

I do not want total control, if I wanted total control I would be programming Assembly. I want a certain degree of control. And Leadwerks' offers me that control.

 

But you can't prevent other people to gain some Lua framework or some Lua more 3D artist oriented capability "like" Unity 3D .

 

I indeed can't and don't want to. But that still does not warrant a move to Unity,

 

Isn't it efficient and prooven to work even for 3D artists ? So why not LE3 with Lua going this way ?

 

Because this is a programmer-centric engine and the main reason why a lot of programmers got this engine instead of Unity.

 

But there is obviously no right or wrong. There is vanilla and strawberry. I do think, without trying to offend you, you bought the wrong engine and you should get Unity. It appearantly is everything you want. There is a free version you know.

[YouGroove]

You are right, i baught the wrong engine, i mean LE2 ...

But i had a good feeeling about the world editor , and terrain tools for some outdoor big levels, it was what i was seeking also.

For the programming side, yes I didn't understood the LE2 way of using Lua, i just understood step by step after some time using it and asking lot of questions !

 

LE3 seems to that it will have the script ready for game , just by implementing gameplay , without writing a "main" function and table of entities,

you'll have just to "attach' the code to entities if i understood well ? So LE3 when i will test seems to be what i exepected ...

I'll test , and i'll see if yes or no ...

I know that LE2, LE3 will remain engines for programmers, i'll just test the Lua side of LE3 and see how far we can go !

After that , the choice will be mine ..

[Pixel Perfect]

All engines are in my opinion 'engines for programmers', it’s just some like Leadwerks do it a little more elegantly than others. This idea that programmers can produce games without artists or artists can do so without programmers is really just a pipedream, artists and programmers need to team up to produce games and use their strengths to the full. Sure, features like the ones Josh is adding to LE3 help with the production of really simple games or prototypes; and you will be able to produce more without real programming skills than the current engine is capable of. But let’s not fool ourselves, real programming skills will always be required for a good commercial game just as real modeling/artistic skills are. Scripting does not negate the need for programming skills, good programmers will produce far better output and achieve much more than poor programmers.

 

Unity and UDK are examples of game engines rather than game engine APIs. They have established game engine frameworks which from the onset limit you to a certain degree by demanding conformance to that framework. Leadwerks has a lot more freedom to express your creative design and allows for frameworks to be built and customized to your particular game. That is a huge advantage if you accept from the beginning that this needs to be resourced and you need good solid programming skills in your team.

 

That's how I see it anyway.

[Rick]

This idea that programmers can produce games without artists or artists can do so without programmers is really just a pipedream, artists and programmers need to team up to produce games and use their strengths to the full.

 

I don't know. Have you played Minecraft I just bought it and if an artist was involved at all in that game I'd be surprised. I like the game and to me shows a pretty good example as to programming being a bigger force for a "good" game than art.

[Pixel Perfect]

Yeah, fair point Rick. I have Minecraft and my son loves it and it certainly shows what a very talented programmer can do. There are always exceptions to the rule, but most of us are not that exceptional so I believe my basic premise still stands. Show me any game house that is not comprised of mixtures of programmers and artists ... and that's not by coincidence!

[YouGroove]

They are lonewolves indie people that succeed making good 3D art and programming after using a 3D engine.

Lot of examples can be seen on mobile, because the 3D art is not as pushed as with AAA games on PC !

I didn't say LE3 should be for programmers or 3D artists, i said i just hope it will make scripting more easy and direct as in Unity 3D, only my hope,

perhaps lot of people don't feel the same ...

I really need to try something in Lua and LE2 and stop talking about LE3, we will see for Lua how it works when it will be delivered, until that , i think i just can wait ....

And programmers can be rassured LE3 will reamin a 3D engine for programmers, no doubt on that ... (don't feel so attacked ...)

[cassius]

I don't see much difference between scripting and programing. If you can learn lua you can learn blitzmax or c++.

If le 3 can automaticaly produce a third person or first person framework well good, that saves us a lot of time,providing it is possible to tweak the pre written code.

[Pixel Perfect]

They are lonewolves indie people that succeed making good 3D art and programming after using a 3D engine.

....

And programmers can be rassured LE3 will reamin a 3D engine for programmers, no doubt on that ... (don't feel so attacked ...)

Wolves are pack animals, and are so as it’s been proven to be more successful in keeping the individuals alive by behaving in that way. Sure, you have individuals who are capable of both art and programming and excel at both but anyone like that would already have demonstrated that with LE2. Anyone who hasn't really isn't one of these people and therefore would be better adopting the pack mentality and teaming up with others. I don't understand this insistence of having to do everything oneself ... for the majority of us it’s so limiting in a marketplace that requires such a diverse set of skills.

 

We make these comments because we believe them to be true, not because we feel attacked. I'm a programmer and quite comfortable with that and use artists to provide the artwork/models I need and it’s not because I don't have any artistic talent, I do, but time is short. In truth, I have no need of LE3 and it’s debatable if I'll even buy it as there is more than enough I can do presently with LE2.

[YouGroove]

I understand the team aspect for PC games.

But for mobile platform the things are totally different : A god programmer with medium 3D art or the help of some baught 3D characters or packages can do a great qualit game.

In the other side a 3D artist knowing how to program Camera, Gameplay, don't need to know complicated math programming to do a great game !

And there are example of lonewolves games that are successfull on steam and great :

Limbo, Bastion, Terraria etc ...

And Lonewolves capable of BIG LOUD games :

 

Ogre 3D : Salvation Prophecy

 

So you see, some succed at both, even if they requiere some temporary help from some 3D artist or programmer (on forums or outside !)

 

 

LE2 programming tutorials and examples are fearly simple, could it be C++ or C#or Lua , and the commands are easy !

I have no problem with that. I just wanted a high level Lua interaction between objects similar to Unity, but i'll try the table of objects and their management with my own main function in LE2

 

 

Something to prototype a game lot more faster before going further and turning it into a full C++ game for example; caus yes

Lua goal can be to Prototype the game also by putting together the 3D art , basic gaemplay and seeing if already the game

is valuable before going on ...

 

Perhaps you are right about LE2 , but LE3 will bring a better workflow, with new material/object editors also; something i'm interested a lot also !

[Pixel Perfect]

Yes, you will get individuals achieving great things; I have never argued that's not the case. It’s just general advice I'm trying to give. From my experience of years on game development forums, less than 0.1% of members will ever finish a game, let alone be capable of completing the entire task themselves. The people who fit the 'Lone wolf' profile you're referring to fit into the 0.01% or (1 in 10,000). A team can be as small as two people and stands a much better chance of succeeding, and believe me good art or programming is not just confined to PC AAA titles, a well designed and resourced game on a mobile phone stands out from the crowd in just the same way. I agree that the graphical demands are a lot less demanding on those platforms although that is changing rapidly too.

 

I'm not trying to be cynical but I have seen a constant stream of people from when I first got into game development who I tend to put into the 'if only' category as they are constantly saying ''if only this engine did this, or if only this engine did that' rather than the real lone wolfs who just get on with the tools at hand and make it happen! I have a huge respect for the lone wolfs of this world but wouldn't recommend that approach to the majority of people

 

LE3 is coming and we all hope it will be improve greatly on LE2, especially the workflow elements as you correctly point out and the inclusion of path finding and simple AI. However, a stable LE3 will be at least a year away if past experience is anything to go on so why not use your time constructively and have a go with LE2. It may not be as user friendly but it's quite capable.

[macklebee]

oddly enough the three games you mentioned as lonewolf games are not... the minimum was two guys doing terraria - one doing the programming the other doing the graphics... so maybe you should take heed of that and actually try to do something with someone else providing the programming side or the art side, whatever the case may be...