Programming forums

[macklebee]

The problem is people with programming questions who use C++ will never get seen by someone who might know the answer who uses C#, etc. We have a "general" programming forum, so people have to choose whether they want their question asked in a sub-forum that is more specific, or in general programming, where they might get more views. Or they might get fewer, if everyone just sticks to their own language sub-forum.

I read all posts no matter what forum just for that very fact that maybe i could help with the answer or possibly learn something even if i do not know the programming language. Only a complete idiot or ridiculous language snob would refuse to look at a post just because its in a different language... Your logic that people will not even look at it because its not in their language of choice makes no sense. Whats to make them not disregard it anyways once they see its in some other language even if it is in just one forum?

 

Here's Macklebee posting in the wrong forum:

http://www.leadwerks.com/werkspace/topic/4135-animationlength

And how is that the wrong forum for that topic? I purposely put it in the general programming forum because it was not a language specific issue. I was asking a question in general about a command usage where i was mistakenly not using a new undocumented command correctly with AnimationLength(). The question was not lua specific, but i posted example code just so people could see how i was trying to use the command.

 

Once the programming forums got split up like they are now, I just stopped reading them.

I just do not understand why 'View New Content' is not an option for you... but ok...

[ChrisV]

A possible solution could be that people start of their topic saying for which language it is. For instance, if one would have a question about C++, then they could commence their topic with the abbreviation of the language in square brackets, followed by the question.

Like this for example:

[C++] How do I program in C++?

 

Just a suggestion, though.

[tournamentdan]

Why don't we try this:

 

If your going to have a bunch of languages in one category. Make it mandatory that the poster has to select a certain language . Once they have selected a language it could be attached to the title. So if you put in "Question about camera controller" and you select c++ in the forum editor. The title will read as "Question about camera controler-c++". That way bmaxers do not have to read about c++,java,lua,or fortran. or vice versa.

[macklebee]

if you do what chris and dan suggest, then your whole argument for doing this in the first place is moot. why remove the different forums if the people making the post are going to separate their posts by language anyways?

[flachdrache]

i dont mind no more tbh - as i was new with le, with a c/c# background jumping into lua, it would have been pure chaoz to skim through pages of bmax to find an answere about a certain topic ...

but i would think the other way around e.g. the forum software p.m.`s topic starters to close the topic with the solution if 14 days passed w/o an update. People started to do this by themself by adding a "solved" to the topic title. tbh - currently its often just random guessing under undefined headlines.

 

LEadwerks forum is kind of strange - i mean we write computer games ... and if a question pops up three days before one gets there he/she/it cant do anything about it or have to wild guess themself with the current set of knowledge ... kind of doing w.i.p. answers or two guessers are better then one.

 

... having a better search option could deal with all that e.g. search solved/not-solved topics to begin with.

[Scott Richmond]

Josh, I completely agree. Cutting the programming forum up like it is now creates duplication of common questions and problems with a LeadWerks engine, which are majority type of thread posted. As has been said previously the LeadWerks code is fairly well cross-language and even more so in LE3 I'm sure, so I don't believe there is much reason to keep things the way they are now.

One way to ease the pain of transition could be to enrich the posting interface to have code tag buttons for C++, C#, BMX, LUA on the WYSIWYG editor. This will allow people to more easily spot the type of code they're looking at.

 

Something else to consider might be to add an 'Off Topic General Programming' sub-board under Community to allow people to post programming based threads that have nothing to do with Leadwerks. For example "How does C++ work and can someone make it for me?"

 

PS - The main 'Leadwerks3D' and 'Leadwerks Engine' boards are a huge cause of confusion for me too by the way. I always click the top programming section by accident and wonder for a second where all the posts have gone. I world imagine it would be much more difficult for someone new to understand it.

[gamecreator]

Whenever someone asks me which I would like, I often find that I want both.

 

 

Where filter returns only threads that contain code of the checked language(s). Search would act in a similar fashion (given the lack of subforums to search) but with keywords.

 

Granted, this may not be realistically feasible... but it would be neat.

[macklebee]

you can basically do what you are asking for now... so if you are looking for a specific code/phrase in c++ or lua or bmax then you can filter your search just by clicking on the correct subforum then performing your SEARCH and it will only search the current selected forum.

[Scott Richmond]

you can basically do what you are asking for now... so if you are looking for a specific code/phrase in c++ or lua or bmax then you can filter your search just by clicking on the correct subforum then performing your SEARCH and it will only search the current selected forum.

Except with that method you have completely separete programming communities, each having their own isolated base of LE knowledge. Its a grand waste. Joining them all together allows all programmers to help each other out and provide much larger base of knowledge on LE.

[macklebee]

Except with that method you have completely separate programming communities, each having their own isolated base of LE knowledge. Its a grand waste. Joining them all together allows all programmers to help each other out and provide much larger base of knowledge on LE.

 

grand waste? if people are avoiding other posts just because they are not in their language of choice subforum, its not going to make a difference if they are all in one forum or not. Majority of people that have expressed putting them all into one forum also in the same breathe requested that josh provide a way to tag it as post for a certain language. I fail to see how this is any different.

 

If people are idiotic enough to ignore a post based on language then they are not going to pay attention to it no matter what forum its in... and please explain how would this will force them to help other people or how it would provide a larger base of knowledge just because you slapped them all into one forum? if anything it will probably make things more difficult to sift through. The community programming tuts are a perfect example of the clusterfark of placing everything into one forum board.

[Scott Richmond]

Majority of people that have expressed putting them all into one forum also in the same breathe requested that josh provide a way to tag it as post for a certain language. I fail to see how this is any different.

The difference, mate, is that its in one easily accessible and viewable list. Let me put this to you - When people come to the programming forums and ask a question or go looking for an answer wouldn't you agree that for the majority of the time the answer won't be in pure code? And for times when it is in pure code, it'd most likely be LE code that could easily be understood in any of the available languages. So why purposefully segment up the community? Doing so simply increases the chance of someone asking the same question and getting the same answer in each of the separate sub-forums because we all know search is one of the least used features in any forum.

 

If people are idiotic enough to ignore a post based on language then they are not going to pay attention to it no matter what forum its in.

No one does it on purpose. Its simply because the post is in another list - Most people won't manually scroll through several pages of threads for the same reason they won't go visiting different sub-forums - Its too much effort - You'd be better off running a search right?

 

Honestly I don't believe this is that big of an issue. But I've always subscribed to the idea of an easily searchable flat file/list/document structure in any system - Its best at avoiding duplication of data and is efficient.

 

By the way - I completely agree regarding the programming tutorials / articles / documentation. Its all hidden under these menus under sub-menus within pages indexes. Its crazy. Its all made worse by the fact that the search functionality is actually really quite bad. Why can't I just search in every area of the website instead of picking specific types? This website is nice looking and all, but some of the core functionality is really out of whack.

[macklebee]

The difference, mate, is that its in one easily accessible and viewable list. Let me put this to you - When people come to the programming forums and ask a question or go looking for an answer wouldn't you agree that for the majority of the time the answer won't be in pure code? And for times when it is in pure code, it'd most likely be LE code that could easily be understood in any of the available languages. So why purposefully segment up the community? Doing so simply increases the chance of someone asking the same question and getting the same answer in each of the separate sub-forums because we all know search is one of the least used features in any forum.

People that do not read the Leadwerks User Guide (which is hidden quite effectively now with the new layout) or review the wiki or refuse to perform a search will still repeatedly ask the same question over and over no matter what you do. Before the data loss of 6 months of posts, i had searched one time just to see how many times someone had asked why their animated character was red and it was around 25. Over half of those were all in the same forum... and some within a couple of posts of each other.

 

No one does it on purpose. Its simply because the post is in another list - Most people won't manually scroll through several pages of threads for the same reason they won't go visiting different sub-forums - Its too much effort - You'd be better off running a search right?

Honestly I don't believe this is that big of an issue. But I've always subscribed to the idea of an easily searchable flat file/list/document structure in any system - Its best at avoiding duplication of data and is efficient.

I really do not understand how having something categorized is making it too difficult for anyone to review a post. Duplication of information is going to happen no matter what so that argument means nothing. And what does efficiency have to do with a forum board? How does placing 3000+ C++ posts, 3000 Lua posts, 1000+ BMAX, and ~1000 C# posts into one forum make it more efficient?

 

But lets face it, if you are not going to be bothered enough to look at a new post if its not in a language you use, you likely are not going to be bothered to take the time to post some help just because now its all in one forum.

 

Someone here made a joke about this whole situation that i found quite amusing... he said he couldn't wait until his grocery store tries to implement the no-category idea... it should make finding what you need in the store almost impossible.

 

By the way - I completely agree regarding the programming tutorials / articles / documentation. Its all hidden under these menus under sub-menus within pages indexes. Its crazy. Its all made worse by the fact that the search functionality is actually really quite bad. Why can't I just search in every area of the website instead of picking specific types? This website is nice looking and all, but some of the core functionality is really out of whack.

 

I agree and i wouldn't really have a problem with having one programming forum if proper search tools / tags already existed but they do not at the moment. And to make the change now serves no purpose other than to make a complete clusterfark. But this is not going to prevent people from refusing to read or search on their own and it sure isn't going to make people be bothered to help others.

 

So far this is what has been accomplished:

1) 3dws forum now is a protected forum

2) the community programming tuts are listed in one clusterfark list

3) the community artwork tuts are listed but the page leading to them shows 0 topics so you wouldnt find them unless you clicked on the subforum anyways

 

meanwhile... there are 18 pending/confirmed bug reports with some going on 7 months old now... so personally i think farking with the forum is a complete waste of time considering it works just fine if people could be bothered to perform a search or read or just simply click 'View New Posts'.

[Scott Richmond]

Macklebee - I still disagree with you mate. To keep it light hearted I would actually say I'd honestly love my shopping centre to stop categorizing their foods. How god damn often do you go looking for a few specific items that straddle that line between like 4 different categories? Which will of course be on opposite sides of the shopping centre. What I would give for one big fark off isle where everything I need is instantly searched for and given to me as a linear sequence of events down the isle, like Google Maps directions. PROBLEM SOLVED! =D

[macklebee]

well you just proved my point so thank you... that would only work if the tools existed to let you find what you wanted easily... but since that doesn't exist you'd be pissed that there wasn't some form of categories to narrow your search for your fruit loops or beer...

 

same applies to this... if the tools already existed and you could go back and tag all 8000+ programming posts then it would not be that big of an issue.. so leave the LE2 forums alone, provide proper tools, and apply this to the LE3 forums as it would be a fresh start anyways.

[Scott Richmond]

Oh for ****s sake hah. So you actually AGREE with Josh that the forums would do well to merge, you just want it to be done properly. You could have just said that.

[macklebee]

Oh for **** sake hah. So you actually AGREE with Josh that the forums would do well to merge, you just want it to be done properly. You could have just said that.

Actually i never said it would do well to merge them... as someone has yet to provide a good reason to remove subforums in any case. I said if the tools / tags existed already then it wouldn't be as much of an issue. Josh asked what we thought about what he did to the forum and i responded. The tags/search tools were suggested not from Josh but rather from other users. At the same time, i do not see how having programming subforums is a bad thing. one look at the current state of the community programming tuts proves that.

 

So far i have yet to hear one viable reason to put all of them into one forum. So far the reasons to do it are:

1) I cannot be bothered to click 'View New Posts' or multiple subforums

2) duplication data reduction (which will not happen)

3) efficiency (a list 8000+ posts long as compared to a smaller list? how is that efficient?)

4) and somehow this is going to make people actually help more?

 

if the tools existed and you could go back and tag all 8000+ programming posts and the same with the artwork posts, then at least the same functionality would exist as what is capable now, then go for it... but to just make this change now to the LE2 posts is just silly... i said on the very first page to try that format for LE3 but suggested to leave the LE2 forums alone.

[Naughty Alien]

..far as im concerned, whole this forum 'format' thing is not my business, so Ill just make few comments about it, from some sort of indifferent position toward actual topic as most of the time, Im just trying to follow my own posts in order to eventually respond quickly fast as i can..so having said that, from plain observer point of view, throwing all programming languages in to one 'can' looking like a 'fruit salad' because its all in there and at same time .. nothing.. I just look at tutorials and i noticed that thread about 'First Steps' is actually second from bottom of the page .. i mean.. 'First Steps' maaannn .. how that can be OK i have to figure out yet. Then look at asset store now (im checking that because of my lil lib, if someone ask something so i can quickly respond)..before, I could just go over Asset Store, pop up menu appear, and i just click on to tools and im there...now..I click on asset store, then whole parade of options came and again I have to click on left side on to tools to get what I want..hows that efficient, I dont know, but ok .. Bottom line is..it is always nice to see where you could go for given language of choice, in order to see eventual code of your interest..It is truth that syntax LE related is pretty much same, but NOT same rule apply on to language syntax where some game logic processing is done. Simple as it is. So, to sum it up..mixing it all up, in my observation, offering more confusion than benefits..not to mention that, following experience from previous situations, chances are that setup 'ok right now' will change..soo..

 

P.S.

Locked/protected forums are not good idea in my opinion..it is nice to see how a live are product specific forums, from perspective of new user..just a tip..

[Wchris]

I want to merge all the programming forums into one. There are too many forums, and the sub-categories get confusing. Most programming topics don't revolve around only one language, as they are all pretty similar once you get over the syntax. I know I just stopped reading them all once they were split up into different languages. I think the most recent topics in programming are more relevant to most people than having them divided up so you don't have to see something in another language. What do you think?

Languages are very similar ... Delphi even has a twin "C++ Builder" that relies on the same compiler.

We just like our develloping environment and have habits. But once you get at Josh's skill level and masterize many languages the frontiers are not so clear anymore.

Also the perception will be different for the one who asks and the one who answers.

#A The one ho asks will prefer to ask in his specific language forum, because he fears otherwise he could be missed or get a wrong answer.

#B The one who answers generally won't care as much if his answer does not contain direct opengl calls or very specific code.

 

Personaly when I search an answer I use the global forum search feature, and just explores the hits, whatever language it is in.

Usually I don't want to cut&paste code, I prefer understand what's done. But some may prefer cut&paste (more often beginners) and they will prefer to filter their search into their specific language.

 

So I think even if you merge the forums you'll need to provide a per language filtering system.

[Rick]

So I think even if you merge the forums you'll need to provide a per language filtering system.

 

I think that's the key. Until you have the "technology" to give attributes to posts, splitting them out into their own forum is basically doing just that.

 

My concern is more around certain techniques around game design than LE commands. Certain languages use different ideas which can influence the design pattern used for your game. For example I'm big into OO event driven game design instead of polling driven. How you go about that can be very different dependent on the language. For the .NET people they are working in a whole different framework (the .net framework not LE) that no other officially supported language for LE has so they can be in an entirely different world. .NET also has a bunch of features these other languages don't have.

 

Either way I think we'd learn to live with it though. We probably all have more important things to worry about

[Wchris]

I think that's the key. Until you have the "technology" to give attributes to posts, splitting them out into their own forum is basically doing just that.

Yes, But the answer is probably in between. To satisfy everybody the forum sections could become customizable per profile.

 

This way #A would check "detailled per language" layout that is more well suited to ask questions.

and #B would check "merge all in common programming" layout that is more suited to monitor and input answers.

 

 

but #B would have to specify an "attribute" when starting a new topic like Rick said.

[Naughty Alien]

Languages are very similar ... Delphi even has a twin "C++ Builder" that relies on the same compiler.

We just like our develloping environment and have habits. But once you get at Josh's skill level and masterize many languages the frontiers are not so clear anymore.

 

..once you reach such level, or near it, whatever you call that level..you will not surf any language forum here in hope to find answer, but most probably you will be writing your own engine and be happy..fact is that, people whos using C++ or Bmax or C# or LUA, highly unlikely will swap their environment since they are familiar with it, achieving results with it and LE works with it, therefore, to have independent language threads sounds very logical to me..

[Josh]

Which do we care more about?

 

1) Discussion of per-language special features that have nothing to do with Leadwerks.

 

2) Discussion of Leadwerks API that is common to all supported languages.

 

Special language features are going to get more obscure in the future because only things that work on iOS, Android, Windows, and Mac will be relevant to anyone doing cross-platform development.

[Rick]

Well, actually discussions shouldn't be about the API, questions should. Questions about the API are short and sweet and to the point. They often don't raise opinions and are factual in nature. Discussions should be beyond the LE API and more about systems like AI, pathfinding, etc which use the LE API to do 3D tasks but is more about the system than LE API.

 

This is why I like having a "design" forum where people can talk about this stuff. That's the good stuff that people want to see.

 

As a business owner trying to create a community do you just want the community full of "How do I load a sound?" questions? Or do you want topics on how someone implemented pathfinding and talks around that?

 

If you look at it that way you could just have an API Questions forum and a Game Design (programming related) forum

[Roland]

I dont want a separate programming forum at all. I want things to be task driven.

 

That means that the engine part of the forum could be divided into some important parts as Water, Sky, Animation, Terrain, Sound, Physics, Lighting, Programming etc... not more than 10-12. My point with this is that besides just skimming through 'whats new', the forum actually can give some help in a development situtation. Lets say I'm working with water and can't get it to behave or look as it should. In my mind it would be a natural thing to jump into (no pun intendend ) the Water section of the forum and see what help i can get with water. It may be making water textures, progamming shaders or what ever. I want help with water, thats it. I don't what to jump between programming forums, art forums or any other forums to see if anyone has written something about water. I just want help with water.

 

Now we comes to the programming part. I can agree with Josh that one of the sections in this task driven system could be programming. But then it should be programming the engine in a more general term (could be any language) like how to use callbacks or why isn't my World updating etc etc. Any general programming questions not related to the engine should be done in some other Forum that discusses the language, there are many out there.

 

Maybe a Task driven forum this is totally off, but that would be my cup of tea.

Thanks for reading

[gamecreator]

That makes me think of what it would look like if the forum would be divided the way the wiki is. It would definitely be easier to link the two, which is a tempting idea. And Roland, what you say makes sense. But then you have topics which either don't apply or apply to more than one topic. I remember somewhere that someone was trying to get smoke (particles) to look correct in front of water (which I think Leadwerks 2 can't do). Which forum would that go in?

 

...funny thing just now. I was going to try to find that thread to read it and link to it. And I stopped. Where was it? The programming forum or one of the languages? So I'll try all 5...

 

Edit: Lol. Searching for smoke water on all 5 forums results in nothing. Oh well.