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A Simple Poll About IDEs


Marcus
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IDE Poll  

37 members have voted

  1. 1. Which IDE would you like to see officially supported (project files)?

    • Code::Blocks
      6
    • Microsoft Visual Studio
      26
    • Xcode
      0
    • Eclipse
      1
    • Netbeans
      2
    • Other
      2


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We use Visual Studio 2008 for Windows, Xcode for OSX and iOS, and Eclipse for Android.

 

Why Visual Studio 2008 over the latest 2010? Did you run into some sort of compatibility issue?

 

As for the Poll, I use VIM and a few custom scripts on any and all OS's.

There are three types of people in this world. People who make things happen. People who watch things happen. People who ask, "What happened?"

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Why Visual Studio 2008 over the latest 2010? Did you run into some sort of compatibility issue?

I believe there's a significant number of computers that don't have the VC 2010 Redistributable Package installed.

My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without.

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I believe there's a significant number of computers that don't have the VC 2010 Redistributable Package installed.

 

That seems like a rather easy thing to solve. If it wasn't obvious by the name, it's designed to be redistributed with any application that is compiled against the latest version of MSVC. It's downright trivial to add a silent install option in a game's installation package.

 

In addition, support for Visual Studio 2008 Express is being phased out.

 

Obviously the choice is yours, but that seems to be a pretty silly reason.

There are three types of people in this world. People who make things happen. People who watch things happen. People who ask, "What happened?"

Let's make things happen.

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I use MSVC 2010 for Leadwerks and almost any other C++ project. But I recently stumbled across Sublime. Its not really an IDE but you can pluginify it to do whatever you need, and its by far the best one I've ever seen. Its just pure beauty. I am in love.

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Intel Core i7 930 @ 3.5GHz | GeForce 480 GTX | 6GB DDR3 RAM | Windows 7 Premium x64

Visual Studio 2008 | Photoshop CS3 | Maya 2009

Website: http://srichnet.info

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It's downright trivial to add a silent install option in a game's installation package.

I estimate with pretty good confidence that the majority of times a Leadwerks game is or will be run on an end user's computer, it won't involve an installer at all. Someone will email a zip file, or it will be downloaded through a web browser plugin, and no traditional installer program will be used. In any event, when that doesn't work it falls back to me. The OpenAL installer alone has caused me a tremendous amount of problems.

 

It's hard for a technically competent person to understand, but the Windows installation method is utterly broken, for your average consumer. It's safe to say the average consumer doesn't even know how to install a program, and if they did they don't want to, for fear of viruses or crapware. You have to understand, the normal usage model for most people is to purchase a low-price laptop, never reformat or maintain, then throw it out after 12 months and buy another when performance slows down. Therefore, every program they install carries a financial risk because it can make their replacement cost come sooner. I know it's idiotic, but that's really how people are.

 

A lot of people don't even realize you can install a game on a PC and play it. To them, PC gaming = Farmville.

 

I reformatted my neighbor's computer a couple months ago, and now it's covered in Ask.com and other crapware again. I gave up and told her to buy a Mac.

 

Overcoming the barriers to getting a game on the consumer's hard drive is hugely important. It shouldn't be this way, but it is and we have to deal with it until a better system comes along.

My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without.

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Hahaha... no wonder US is in a economial crisis :)

It's our whole culture. Computers, cars, buildings, are all designed to break quickly.

 

According to this article, Windows XP is at about 38%:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/windows_7_overtakes_xp

 

I think it's fair to say 95% of Windows XP consumer machines (not developers) don't have the VC 2010 service pack installed. That means Leadwerks3D games won't run out of the box on 36% of end users machines if I use VC 2010.

 

I know you can include it in an installer, but developers will neglect to do so, and we are also looking at alternative installation methods and trying to get file sizes down to a very small size (web browser plugins). If the user has to download something extra, a huge number will turn away at that point. Each one of these screen is an opportunity for you to lose a customer:

post-1-0-69161500-1324248923_thumb.jpg

 

Little Timmy isn't going to have a clue what this means. Is it a virus?:

post-1-0-06361300-1324248931_thumb.jpg

 

Even if installer sizes or downloading an extra installer weren't an issue, a large number of people simply won't go through the steps of installing it. I know your opinion makes better technical sense, but the whole point of Leadwerks3D is to address what the market wants and what makes good business sense.

 

MS could have solved this by including the VC 2010 service pack in required Windows updates a year ago, but they didn't. Now they're turning C++ into a .NET monster that requires additional plugins just to run a program. We can't let their bad leadership doom our efforts to reach customers.

My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without.

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Isn't it possible to make a silent installer for that? I mean a lot of steam games install C++ redistributable.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/astebner/archive/2010/10/20/10078468.aspx

 

And this is precisely what you're supposed to do.

 

I estimate with pretty good confidence that the majority of times a Leadwerks game is or will be run on an end user's computer, it won't involve an installer at all. Someone will email a zip file, or it will be downloaded through a web browser plugin, and no traditional installer program will be used.

 

Admittedly this is true. I can't help but think from the perspective of someone selling commercial games. Leadwerks, at least from what I've seen on the forums, is most often used for tinkering or visualizations. The engine has a lot of potential, it's just not really being used for much in terms of commercial ventures. :)

 

 

In any event, when that doesn't work it falls back to me. The OpenAL installer alone has caused me a tremendous amount of problems.

 

My question is why does this fall back to you? Part of your problem is you're not using a traditional installer nor are you actually silently installing the OpenAL redist. Switch to a reasonable installer and you should be just fine.

 

As for people distributing their own games, it should betheir responsibility to get the 2010 redist package installed for their users, provided it's mentioned explicitly in the documentation you provide. ;)

 

Again, it's obviously your choice. I just don't agree with your reasoning. It's not complex to get a real installation package together, nor is it expensive, NSIS and Inno Setup are both free and fully featured.

 

I also feel that you have a bit of a contradiction here. You're largely targeting high end video hardware. Hardware that your average computer buyer simply doesn't have. Those who do have that hardware tend to have a much better understanding of what they are doing. Running an installer is much less of an issue in this case. Now if you were writing a standard bit of desktop software (say, an office application strictly for the sake of an example), I'd agree with you that every additional screen is going to scare people off. However I'd likely still argue for a silent installation of the VS 2010 redist. Please remember, in a year, there will no longer be ANY support for VS 2008. You won't be able to download it nor will the docs be available any longer. I see this as an important showstopper issue.

There are three types of people in this world. People who make things happen. People who watch things happen. People who ask, "What happened?"

Let's make things happen.

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I also feel that you have a bit of a contradiction here. You're largely targeting high end video hardware. Hardware that your average computer buyer simply doesn't have. Those who do have that hardware tend to have a much better understanding of what they are doing. Running an installer is much less of an issue in this case.

90% percent of published Leadwerks3D games will probably focus on low-end graphics, and if they are run on a PC, they will probably be played through a web browser. I'm the last person in the world to admit this, but that's the reality of where the games market is. I'm trying to get the web plugin installer down to about 2 mb. The VC distrib package would triple that size. Not a big deal for you and me, but remember that this will be played by Grandma on her netbook connected to the neighbor's wifi.

 

Of course there's people who do games with high-end graphics, but I can't stay in business if I only provide software for them. At the very least, the engine has to be able to scale between the two extremes.

 

If the VC2008 situation does work out like they are saying now, then I will consider VC 2011, but we've seen MS announce the end of support for something and then keep going. I find it incredible that they no longer support C++ programs out of the box on any version of Windows with a wide install base. Code::Blocks + GCC would probably work better on Windows than Visual Studio, if nothing improves.

My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without.

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90% percent of published Leadwerks3D games will probably focus on low-end graphics, and if they are run on a PC, they will probably be played through a web browser. I'm the last person in the world to admit this, but that's the reality of where the games market is. I'm trying to get the web plugin installer down to about 2 mb. The VC distrib package would triple that size. Not a big deal for you and me, but remember that this will be played by Grandma on her netbook connected to the neighbor's wifi.

 

To be honest, I wasn't even aware that you were making a browser plugin available. ;) Still, even with the size difference, it's going to be a drop in the bucket compared to any games that actually use the plugin I'd think. And as mentioned, if you use the silent installer, it requires no user interaction to install at all.

 

Of course there's people who do games with high-end graphics, but I can't stay in business if I only provide software for them. At the very least, the engine has to be able to scale between the two extremes.

This I agree with entirely.

 

If the VC2008 situation does work out like they are saying now, then I will consider VC 2011, but we've seen MS announce the end of support for something and then keep going. I find it incredible that they no longer support C++ programs out of the box on any version of Windows with a wide install base. Code::Blocks + GCC would probably work better on Windows than Visual Studio, if nothing improves.

 

I think you may have misunderstood. The redist will be supported pretty much permanently. I'm talking about the availability of Visual Studio 2008 to developers using your engine. Microsoft only supports up to one version behind (of the Express Editions that is). VS 2011 is on the way and 2008 won't even be available for download anymore.

 

In addition, I would not recommend GCC/MinGW on windows as the primary development environment. You're going to find the vast majority third party, proprietary, libraries are compatible strictly with Visual Studio.

There are three types of people in this world. People who make things happen. People who watch things happen. People who ask, "What happened?"

Let's make things happen.

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90% percent of published Leadwerks3D games will probably focus on low-end graphics, and if they are run on a PC, they will probably be played through a web browser. I'm the last person in the world to admit this, but that's the reality of where the games market is. I'm trying to get the web plugin installer down to about 2 mb. The VC distrib package would triple that size. Not a big deal for you and me, but remember that this will be played by Grandma on her netbook connected to the neighbor's wifi.

I don't mean to derail this thread, but I'd like to see your evidence for such stats. The Steam marketplace is fast becoming the biggest marketplace for PC games. I think its a bit rich to be saying 90% of the games you expect LE3D to publish will be via web browser.

Programmer, Modeller

Intel Core i7 930 @ 3.5GHz | GeForce 480 GTX | 6GB DDR3 RAM | Windows 7 Premium x64

Visual Studio 2008 | Photoshop CS3 | Maya 2009

Website: http://srichnet.info

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http://www.totalpcgaming.com/latest-pc-news/steam-user-accounts-hit-25-million/

2009 numbers

 

http://mashable.com/2010/02/20/farmville-80-million-users/

Q1 2010

 

http://androideep.com/angry-birds-download-count-to-android-phones-reaches-30-million.html

Heck, there are more people that have downloaded Angry Birds (1 game on a mobile device) than all that are on Steam.

 

I'm no math wiz but...

 

 

I'm not saying I like farmville or have even ever played it, but it says something about where the most people are.

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I don't mean to derail this thread, but I'd like to see your evidence for such stats. The Steam marketplace is fast becoming the biggest marketplace for PC games. I think its a bit rich to be saying 90% of the games you expect LE3D to publish will be via web browser.

Steam? What's that. Is it a virus? My computer plays Farmville. It's on my Facebook. I like Justin Beiber, he seems like such a nice boy. -typical PC game player, 2011.

My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without.

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Got a link to an MS page about this?

 

About what specifically? The retirement of VS 2008 Express? No article I can point to. It is however what they've been doing for the last decade.

There are three types of people in this world. People who make things happen. People who watch things happen. People who ask, "What happened?"

Let's make things happen.

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I don't mean to derail this thread, but I'd like to see your evidence for such stats. The Steam marketplace is fast becoming the biggest marketplace for PC games. I think its a bit rich to be saying 90% of the games you expect LE3D to publish will be via web browser.

 

He's right. Targeting Facebook is a big deal right now. I'm more curious as to how he intends this to work if developers are using C++. I can certainly see how this would be fairly doable with Lua.

 

@Josh

How are you intending the web plugin to work? Strictly by Lua?

 

For C++ users, is each game going to have it's own plugin? Are you going to use a dll hook? Something else?

There are three types of people in this world. People who make things happen. People who watch things happen. People who ask, "What happened?"

Let's make things happen.

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