Josh Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 On lower specs I want my game to look like source (old version, be4 L4D) mods, with same framerates. How higher the specs, how better I want the game to look without loosing some framerate. That's easy. Render straight to the back buffer with no lighting. It will look terrible, but it will be fast. I'd be interested in hearing some definite framerates on your machine for the editor with one of the included scenes opened, at the default window size. My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheoLogic Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 Source has/had lightning backed Some stats: -Desert highway: 1 min to load -Terrain arctic: 2 mins to load -Train: 20 secs to load -Tunnels: 10 secs to load This is what I get with some post effects enabled (FPS/4): Also remark the editor takes 1 minute to close... Follow me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheoLogic Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 Just to add, this is just rendering... I would only be able to run the tunnels scene with pretty poor post effects to enable gameplay. Follow me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macklebee Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 these loading times don't make sense... and as for the editor taking a long time to close, wasn't that an issue back in the day with sandbox and the modelviewer due to some issue with a driver? my editor closes immediately. Win7 64bit / Intel i7-2600 CPU @ 3.9 GHz / 16 GB DDR3 / NVIDIA GeForce GTX 590 LE / 3DWS / BMX / Hexagon macklebee's channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlb Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 i may be mising this but is your loading time on a laptop as the spec you showing is laptop spec so the slowest part you got is harddisk so it may be the problem but i could be wrong PLus i would say update you driver as laptop driver are normal very old even when its a new laptop sorry if am wrong on this and forget what i said Asus ROG STRIX B350-F GAMMING AMD Ryzen 7 1700x 32 gb ddr4 15 TB raid 5 HD Nvidia EVGA 1060GTX Win10 64bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Your performance actually seems pretty good considering the card. You're rendering about 500,000 trees at 30 FPS with dynamic lighting on a GEForce 7? How is that bad? I can't really comment on the load times. It doesn't make sense to me why that would be slow. Perhaps the card has a low memory bandwidth, in which case the best thing would be to lower the texture quality and reload the scene. This is a sort of related topic, although I don't think multithreading would do anything for your performance on this machine: http://blitzmax.com/...php?topic=88306 My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marleys Ghost Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Well I just put together this low spec test system System POS: Desktop case (That is, spread out over a desktop ) AMD Athlon 64 3000+ 2GHz 1 GB RAM Maxtor 40GB HDD XP Home SP3 Sapphire Radeon X1550 ATI 512MB DDR2 AGP ATI Catalyst Display Driver Version 9.11 Editor opening : 4.5 secs The only standard map I could open was the tunnels anything else caused the editor to exit. Tunnels.sbx : opened in ~3 secs With everything turned on or set to high that is: Running the flythrough.lua I got between 7 and 12 FPS. Editor when closed exited almost instantly. AMD Bulldozer FX-4 Quad Core 4100 Black Edition 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333Mhz Memory Gigabyte GeForce GTX 550 Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5 Windows 7 Home 64 bit BlitzMax 1.50 • Lua 5.1 • MaxGUI 1.41 • UU3D Pro • MessiahStudio Pro • Silo Pro 3D Coat • ShaderMap Pro • Hexagon 2 • Photoshop, Gimp & Paint.NET LE 2.5/3.4 • Skyline • UE4 • CE3 SDK • Unity 5 • Esenthel Engine 2.0 Marleys Ghost's YouTube Channel • Marleys Ghost's Blog "I used to be alive like you .... then I took an arrow to the head" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Some bloated anti-virus programs tend to slow down opening of files (usually all commercial ones). Using ClamWin everything works fast, and it finds also real viruses (commercial ones find only false alerts). ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 The X1550 actually isn't supported because it can't perform texture lookups in the vertex shader, which is why the terrain maps crashed. My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marleys Ghost Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 The X1550 actually isn't supported because it can't perform texture lookups in the vertex shader, which is why the terrain maps crashed. I wondered about that, but I was more interested in the load times and see if I could replicate the times TheoLogic was getting.. but even with a low spec POS test system I could not. I view the results for the test platform considering its spec quite a success The X1550 was the lowest spec SM3 card I had. AMD Bulldozer FX-4 Quad Core 4100 Black Edition 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333Mhz Memory Gigabyte GeForce GTX 550 Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5 Windows 7 Home 64 bit BlitzMax 1.50 • Lua 5.1 • MaxGUI 1.41 • UU3D Pro • MessiahStudio Pro • Silo Pro 3D Coat • ShaderMap Pro • Hexagon 2 • Photoshop, Gimp & Paint.NET LE 2.5/3.4 • Skyline • UE4 • CE3 SDK • Unity 5 • Esenthel Engine 2.0 Marleys Ghost's YouTube Channel • Marleys Ghost's Blog "I used to be alive like you .... then I took an arrow to the head" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Betke Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 These loadingtimes are really wired. I did a testmap with over 13600 mapmodels of one type to see how it performs or if it'll crash. But after 2mins of loading it was all fine with no errors and good framerates. The maps you mention load very fast within 15sec. Pure3d Visualizations Germany - digital essences AAA 3D Model Shop specialized on nature and environments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheoLogic Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 The point has gone missing again. It's possible for me to run some cool looking things, but I don't have the performance left for gameplay! Josh, you tell me I render about 500,000 trees at 30 FPS with dynamic lighting on a GEForce 7, I don't have anything left for gameplay. There aren't even collisions! I will restate my point again: - Make LWE deployable to lower end specs (and I don't mean 300bucks mini laptops, but for example I can run L4D2 on a GeForce go 7600, but I can't run leadwerks at decent framerates). - Speed up everything. I want to help with this, basic tests what is or isn't faster. Test on older systems, ... - Fix existing bugs first Follow me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Paulson Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Just to add to this I've recently done a test with 20 AI controlled NPCs. Each one uses a character controller to move about. The update world statement takes 20 - 30 seconds Hoping this can be improved on as I would like on a level >100 AI characters. My machine spec is: - GW-265 GAINWARD GEFORCE GTX260 "GOLDEN SAMPLE" *216 STREAM PROCESSOR* 55NM SLI 896MB DDR3 TV-OUT/DUAL DVI PCI-EXPRESS 250 GB SATA-II HDD UDMA 300 7200 8MB Motherboard Integrated 5.1 Sound Motherboard Integrated Ethernet Lan (Broadband Ready) 450W PSU Motherboard Integrated Graphics Corsair XMS2 4GB PC2-8500 1066 MHZ (2 x 2 GB) - Lifetime Warranty (DDR2) Intel Core 2 Duo E7500 (2 x 2.9 GHZ) 1066FSB - 3 MB ASUS P5Q 1600FSB (Intel P45) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niosop Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Yeah, character controllers are hard on the physics engine it looks like. For that many characters dump the player controller and just do raycasts for whatever you need. I've had 200+ NPCs moving around at 20-30FPS, but they were only doing a raycast downwards to find out the terrain height, playing 2 animations and moving around. Are they all on screen at the same time? If not, maybe turn off their player controllers when they're not on screen or > than a certain distance away and enable them when it makes a difference? Windows 7 x64 - Q6700 @ 2.66GHz - 4GB RAM - 8800 GTX ZBrush - Blender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheoLogic Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 @ Niosop: This depends on what you are doing. In our RE::Pest game we needed every AI to be updated or else some events wouldn't occur when needed. This slowed us down to 5-10 FPS... Follow me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marleys Ghost Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 The point has gone missing again. Wasn't one of those points loading times? I can run L4D2 on a GeForce go 7600, but I can't run leadwerks at decent framerates Means nothing without more info. Like what settings L4D2 was using and if it had good framerates .. the only accurate comparison that can be drawn so far is you can run both. AMD Bulldozer FX-4 Quad Core 4100 Black Edition 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333Mhz Memory Gigabyte GeForce GTX 550 Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5 Windows 7 Home 64 bit BlitzMax 1.50 • Lua 5.1 • MaxGUI 1.41 • UU3D Pro • MessiahStudio Pro • Silo Pro 3D Coat • ShaderMap Pro • Hexagon 2 • Photoshop, Gimp & Paint.NET LE 2.5/3.4 • Skyline • UE4 • CE3 SDK • Unity 5 • Esenthel Engine 2.0 Marleys Ghost's YouTube Channel • Marleys Ghost's Blog "I used to be alive like you .... then I took an arrow to the head" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Paulson Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Yeah, character controllers are hard on the physics engine it looks like. For that many characters dump the player controller and just do raycasts for whatever you need. I've had 200+ NPCs moving around at 20-30FPS, but they were only doing a raycast downwards to find out the terrain height, playing 2 animations and moving around. Are they all on screen at the same time? If not, maybe turn off their player controllers when they're not on screen or > than a certain distance away and enable them when it makes a difference? I was worried that doing that many line picks would be just as slow. But with your evidence I'll drop the controller. I was going to in the future anyway as I wanted to do foot placement and IK as I think floaty NPCs on slopes/stairs looks "old hat". For far off characters (not viewed by players eyes) I could use the navmesh as it knows an estimate of where the floor is and recast is very fast. However footplacement my be beyond me and will be out of reach for a lot of leadwerks users, so the controller does need to be sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheoLogic Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 Wasn't one of those points loading times? Means nothing without more info. Like what settings L4D2 was using and if it had good framerates .. the only accurate comparison that can be drawn so far is you can run both. Loading times is one thing, I think this is just an error on older specs. And what a whine about me running L4D2 at full settings on my gf's laptop, you have to be an idiot to not see the comparison. And if you read well, it uses a 7600 card, not running leadwerks over 10 FPS on low resolutions. I don't try to prove LWE is slow on lower end specs and older pc's, I'm saying it is and I think most people will agree. I'm asking to boost performance, and support deploying to lower specs. I also want multithreading in-engine, so we have seperate update and render calls, ... Follow me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marleys Ghost Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 And what a whine about me running L4D2 at full settings on my gf's laptop, you have to be an idiot to not see the comparison. And if you read well, it uses a 7600 card, not running leadwerks over 10 FPS on low resolutions. you never mentoned settings for L4D2 hence the comment ... you simply stated you could run it. I can run L4D2 on a GeForce go 7600, but I can't run leadwerks at decent framerates AMD Bulldozer FX-4 Quad Core 4100 Black Edition 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333Mhz Memory Gigabyte GeForce GTX 550 Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5 Windows 7 Home 64 bit BlitzMax 1.50 • Lua 5.1 • MaxGUI 1.41 • UU3D Pro • MessiahStudio Pro • Silo Pro 3D Coat • ShaderMap Pro • Hexagon 2 • Photoshop, Gimp & Paint.NET LE 2.5/3.4 • Skyline • UE4 • CE3 SDK • Unity 5 • Esenthel Engine 2.0 Marleys Ghost's YouTube Channel • Marleys Ghost's Blog "I used to be alive like you .... then I took an arrow to the head" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marleys Ghost Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Loading times is one thing, I think this is just an error on older specs. Well I tried it on a POS low spec system and could not get the same problem. AMD Bulldozer FX-4 Quad Core 4100 Black Edition 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333Mhz Memory Gigabyte GeForce GTX 550 Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5 Windows 7 Home 64 bit BlitzMax 1.50 • Lua 5.1 • MaxGUI 1.41 • UU3D Pro • MessiahStudio Pro • Silo Pro 3D Coat • ShaderMap Pro • Hexagon 2 • Photoshop, Gimp & Paint.NET LE 2.5/3.4 • Skyline • UE4 • CE3 SDK • Unity 5 • Esenthel Engine 2.0 Marleys Ghost's YouTube Channel • Marleys Ghost's Blog "I used to be alive like you .... then I took an arrow to the head" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macklebee Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I don't try to prove LWE is slow on lower end specs and older pc's, I'm saying it is and I think most people will agree. hmmm i can say the same for crysis as well when ran on a POS pc... <<--speaking from experience Win7 64bit / Intel i7-2600 CPU @ 3.9 GHz / 16 GB DDR3 / NVIDIA GeForce GTX 590 LE / 3DWS / BMX / Hexagon macklebee's channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niosop Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Well I'm not saying don't update them, just don't use physics for them when the player can't even see them and slightly unrealistic behavior won't matter. Windows 7 x64 - Q6700 @ 2.66GHz - 4GB RAM - 8800 GTX ZBrush - Blender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 - Make LWE deployable to lower end specs (and I don't mean 300bucks mini laptops, but for example I can run L4D2 on a GeForce go 7600, but I can't run leadwerks at decent framerates). Yes you can. Turn off shadows. Left 4 dead uses a combination of static lightmaps and single projected shadows, with vertex colors for lighting of dynamic objects. This is the approach I used to use before version 2.0 came out. I will never again implement a bsp-based engine like this. One consequence of a uniform lighting model like STALKER and Crysis use is that on low-end cards the older engines may actually look better than the newer one with settings lowered. The same was true when HL2 came out; the fixed-function renderer was so simple it looked worse than Quake 3. My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheoLogic Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 That's it, you can't! Even when you turn of shadows you won't be that efficient. Even with shadows off 20 character controllers lag. Like you said, most off the problem is GPU lightning, but I am sure your own code can be boosted too... Follow me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Thomas Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 What kind of performance hit do you get when loading a L4D map into Hammer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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