Uberman Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Hi, everybody. I'm currently researching game engines (open source and commercial) for a personal project I'm contemplating. A friend of mine recommended I give Leadwerks a look as well, and I have a couple of questions about its licensing. I'd like to know if the $199.99 single-user license purchase covers any commercial use of the engine (allowed by the EULA, of course), or are there additional fees/royalties should I decide to sell my game? This portion of the EULA has me a bit confused/worried:"...You may not create a 3D game or other application that is modifiable by script, programming, GUI interface or other means, unless the system requires the end user to also own a valid license for the SOFTWARE PRODUCT." Would this be interpreted as prohibiting me from providing scripting features to my game's users as part of the game's mechanics? Thanks for your feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 1) You can make as many games you want 2) The EULA is quite clumsy formulated, it basically wants to say that you can't make fully moddable games which would result in whole new games, but making little adjustments to a single game is OK Quote ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 The first question is easy to answer. Once paid, you can create any number of games, commercial or free, doesn't matter... A related question some people will ask is: "Is there a free, non-commercial version" to which the answer to that is no. The second point is basically trying to say you can't make a program which creates games, using Leadwerks for its underlying graphics subsystem. Only really one person can answer your question here for sure, but I'd go along the lines of: Creating a game which allows additional weapons (for example) to be inserted without recompiling the game, would be fine (how you'd manage something like that is your choice). Creating a scripting system which would allow an additional "game mode" to be inserted, such as adding a capture the flag mode to a game that already has multiplayer capabilities would be dubious (I'd work along the idea of it not being allowed). Building something like FPS Creator (if you're familiar with that) would be unquestionably, not allowed. Scripting however for the process of providing the user with some sort of automation, (as in "macros") is probably allowable, so it really depends what sort of capabilities your scripting would enable, but like I say, only one person can actually answer your question definitively... Quote LE Version: 2.50 (Eventually) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassius Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 As I see it you can make any type of game but you cannot put a wrapper around the le api and sell it as a game engine as though it was your own work. Quote amd quad core 4 ghz / geforce 660 ti 2gb / win 10 Blender,gimp,silo2,ac3d,,audacity,Hexagon / using c++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberman Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 The first question is easy to answer. Once paid, you can create any number of games, commercial or free, doesn't matter... A related question some people will ask is: "Is there a free, non-commercial version" to which the answer to that is no. Absolutely understand. If you can't afford $200 for unlimited commercial game production, then you clearly aren't serious in the first place. Scripting however for the process of providing the user with some sort of automation, (as in "macros") is probably allowable, so it really depends what sort of capabilities your scripting would enable, but like I say, only one person can actually answer your question definitively... Yes, this is the very thing that concerned me. I think a game should have 'macro' capabilities, but the licensing seemed rather gray area about that. It probably just isn't worded well enough to distinguish these elements. Thanks for the reply, Mumbles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 It errs on the side f protecting the company, like most of these things do. If you have a precise description of what you intend to do, feel free to run it by me. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberman Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 It errs on the side f protecting the company, like most of these things do. If you have a precise description of what you intend to do, feel free to run it by me. Hi, Josh. It was basically as I described to Mumbles. It was unclear to me from the description if providing "macro" capabilities within my game violated the EULA the way it was worded. However, I think the replies within this post have made the spirit of the license clearer: I cannot use the game engine to create a game engine. From that standpoint, adding a scripting system to a game for the sake of the game itself would not violate the licensing. Is that substantially correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 You would need to be a lot more specific and precise for there to be anything for me to agree to. It's not enough to just say "it's for the game". You need to define your terms, or there is nothing concrete for me to agree to. Your definitions of gameplay control might be wildly different from mine. But I think you understand my concerns and position. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalHax Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 As I see it you can make any type of game but you cannot put a wrapper around the le api and sell it as a game engine as though it was your own work. But as some people have done, you can make your own interface, or any other tool so assist you personally, but no, you can sell it off. Quote Win7 64bit, Leadwerks SDK 2.5, Visual Studio 2012, 3DWS, 3ds Max, Photoshop CS5. Life is too short to remove USB safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberman Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 You would need to be a lot more specific and precise for there to be anything for me to agree to. It's not enough to just say "it's for the game". You need to define your terms, or there is nothing concrete for me to agree to. Your definitions of gameplay control might be wildly different from mine. But I think you understand my concerns and position. Ok. Your inability to understand precisely what I mean (even though I think I was quite precise about it) worries me. I will try another, more concrete example... Let's say I want to write an MMO using Leadwerks. In this MMO, the player has the ability to write various "macros" to aid in their game play. For example, the player can write a macro (the specific language of which is irrelevant; it may be Python, it may be Lua, it may be something proprietary that only exists within the game itself) that lets them automate an attack sequence, or lets them automate some crafting action, or simply lets them automate a greeting with another player. Is this application of "scripting" within a game based on the Leadwerks engine prohibited by the EULA? It's not entirely clear from the wording of the EULA, but the interpretation of others within this thread suggest that it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 If you restrict the macro language to only have commands which the gameplay needs (that's what WoW does too), and not enough general commands which would allow making a whole new game with them, then it should be allowed. In addition you should have also other checks, like serial number of the game, an EULA which forbids selling modded games (like Crysis does, and they don't do anything else to prevent their engine to be misused). If someone sells a modded Crysis game, they would be exposed within 24 hours by the internet users. Quote ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 You're probably best by simply making your own scripting system for your game - that way, you control exactly what is exposed and what isn't. Then a quick once over from Josh (to make sure it really isn't allowing someone else to create games with his engine for free), and I'd guess you'd be good to go. It's not that he isn't understanding where you're coming from, it's that he wants you to be very definite in what you are proposing when it comes to scripting, because it's his business potentially at stake. He doesn't want an agreement being misinterpreted (or worse, a deliberately vague agreement whereby someone then wraps his engine and then makes it available to users who haven't bought it). Sorry if this comes across as a bit harsh, and sounds a bit like "guilty until proven innocent", but it's really nothing to worry about. Josh just needs to protect all the time and effort he has invested into creating this engine (and the successor that's currently in development), and that's done by making sure people aren't effectively giving the engine away for free in the form of a scriptable game. Whilst I'm not affiliated with the company in any way at all, I don't think you'd have any problems with inventing a macro like system as long as Josh knows just exactly what power the scripting system will grant to people who buy your game (who may, or may not own the Leadwerks SDK)... Remember, you can always run it by him with a private message if you'd rather not post it in public. Quote LE Version: 2.50 (Eventually) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Ok. Your inability to understand precisely what I mean (even though I think I was quite precise about it) worries me. I will try another, more concrete example... Let's say I want to write an MMO using Leadwerks. In this MMO, the player has the ability to write various "macros" to aid in their game play. For example, the player can write a macro (the specific language of which is irrelevant; it may be Python, it may be Lua, it may be something proprietary that only exists within the game itself) that lets them automate an attack sequence, or lets them automate some crafting action, or simply lets them automate a greeting with another player. Is this application of "scripting" within a game based on the Leadwerks engine prohibited by the EULA? It's not entirely clear from the wording of the EULA, but the interpretation of others within this thread suggest that it is not. Thanks, I have absolutely no objection to a game product as described in that specification. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberman Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 ...Josh just needs to protect all the time and effort he has invested into creating this engine (and the successor that's currently in development)... Thank you for reminding me, Mumbles. That raises another question I could not seem to find the answer to: Does my purchase of a copy Leadwerks today provide me only with licensing for that copy (version)? In other words, when it's "successor" arrives, will I need to purchase a new license to use that version? Be aware that I'm not asking for free lifetime updates (at $200, I think requiring licensing renewals for ordinal updates to be an acceptable business model). I'm just wanting to understand my obligations regarding future releases of the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixel Perfect Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 In other words, when it's "successor" arrives, will I need to purchase a new license to use that version? Yes you will. You have come arrived at a time where LE3 is not far off its initial release and towards the end of the current LE2 product. However, having said that, the initial release of LE3 will be without support for terrain and being realistic will probably be unstable for a period of time thereafter as bugs are ironed out. LE2 is a fine game engine SDK and I suspect will be in use for some time to come yet and Josh has stated many times that the combined price of LE2 plus the upgrade to LE3 will be less than the cost of buying LE3 on its own. Quote Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberman Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Yes you will. You have come arrived at a time where LE3 is not far off its initial release and towards the end of the current LE2 product. However, having said that, the initial release of LE3 will be without support for terrain and being realistic will probably be unstable for a period of time thereafter as bugs are ironed out. LE2 is a fine game engine SDK and I suspect will be in use for some time to come yet and Josh has stated many times that the combined price of LE2 plus the upgrade to LE3 will be less than the cost of buying LE3 on its own. Thanks. Makes perfect sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughty Alien Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 ..while this licensing questions are here, im wondering, is it possible to sell tools for actual game creation, to existing LE user base?? Is that violation of EULA?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 ..while this licensing questions are here, im wondering, is it possible to sell tools for actual game creation, to existing LE user base?? Is that violation of EULA?? If it requires the end user to have a Leadwerks Engine license, I don't see any problem. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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