Paul Thomas Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 If you keep up with the payments, lol. I'm just playing anyways. It's pathetically dumb to download the hacked version of LE and go to the forums expecting some help. Edit: And ironically I just finished eating a turkey sandwich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macklebee Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 If you keep up with the payments, lol. I'm just playing anyways. It's pathetically dumb to download the hacked version of LE and go to the forums expecting some help. Edit: And ironically I just finished eating a turkey sandwich. yes, to freely admit it and ask for help is very questionable actually was eating one while writing that and was thinking I would kill anyone that touches my sandwich... and i am still hungry Quote Win7 64bit / Intel i7-2600 CPU @ 3.9 GHz / 16 GB DDR3 / NVIDIA GeForce GTX 590 LE / 3DWS / BMX / Hexagon macklebee's channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Thomas Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonramp Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 To be fair, he wasn't using a demo. He freely admitted that he stole the software. Let's not romaticize it by calling it pirating. Let's call it for what it is: stealing. But the problem is everyone has this opinion that since software isn't a tangible thing and they are just downloading it from the internet, that its not stealing. But of course it is. Its just harder to police software than a physical object. But I see absolutely no difference in pirating the software and someone stealing $200 out of Josh's wallet. There is no rationalization that is defendable for stealing someone else's property, whether it be a tv, software, or a turkey sandwich. It's stealing pure and simple. Just re-read what 'mikedee' actually said and you are right he does indicate that he has an illegal version of the software. Unacceptable. However, the notion of 'stealing $200 out of Josh's wallet' is debatable and an argument I've heard many times in the past about software 'piracy'. It implies that someone would be compelled to purchase the software were they not able to acquire it for nothing. That doesn't stack up. At most Josh has lost a potential customer and even that may not be the case because 'mikedee' has indicated that he will buy the LE. after a suitable evaluation period. There has been no theft of money from Josh's wallet because the money was never put there in the first place. Quote AMD Athlon x2 7750 2.7ghz, 6gb ddr2 ram, Galaxy9800GT 1gig ddr2 video card, Windows 7,64. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masterxilo Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Right. Stealing physical things is not quite the same as stealing software/"information" (<- whatever this is). Quote Hurricane-Eye Entertainment - Site, blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Not only does piracy result in a loss of potential sales, it also increases my time spent supporting the product, because pirates tend to be some of the stupidest users. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wh1sp3r Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I have only one word to say: LOL Quote -= Phenom II X4 965 3.4Ghz - ATI HD5870 - 6 GB DDR3 RAM - Windows 8 Pro 64x=- Website: http://www.flamewarestudios.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marleys Ghost Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Just re-read what 'mikedee' actually said and you are right he does indicate that he has an illegal version of the software. Indicate? lol I'm using a "pirate version" not a lot of grey area there .... Quote AMD Bulldozer FX-4 Quad Core 4100 Black Edition 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333Mhz Memory Gigabyte GeForce GTX 550 Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5 Windows 7 Home 64 bit BlitzMax 1.50 • Lua 5.1 • MaxGUI 1.41 • UU3D Pro • MessiahStudio Pro • Silo Pro 3D Coat • ShaderMap Pro • Hexagon 2 • Photoshop, Gimp & Paint.NET LE 2.5/3.4 • Skyline • UE4 • CE3 SDK • Unity 5 • Esenthel Engine 2.0 Marleys Ghost's YouTube Channel • Marleys Ghost's Blog "I used to be alive like you .... then I took an arrow to the head" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marleys Ghost Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Right. Stealing physical things is not quite the same as stealing software/"information" (<- whatever this is). What about electronic money theft? is that not really stealing because no pysical banknotes were involved just "information" ? Quote AMD Bulldozer FX-4 Quad Core 4100 Black Edition 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333Mhz Memory Gigabyte GeForce GTX 550 Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5 Windows 7 Home 64 bit BlitzMax 1.50 • Lua 5.1 • MaxGUI 1.41 • UU3D Pro • MessiahStudio Pro • Silo Pro 3D Coat • ShaderMap Pro • Hexagon 2 • Photoshop, Gimp & Paint.NET LE 2.5/3.4 • Skyline • UE4 • CE3 SDK • Unity 5 • Esenthel Engine 2.0 Marleys Ghost's YouTube Channel • Marleys Ghost's Blog "I used to be alive like you .... then I took an arrow to the head" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niosop Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 It comes down to "do I no longer have something I did have?". In the case of electronic money theft, yup it's theft as you no longer have the money you had. In the case of software, is Josh's engine suddenly missing from his hard drive? No, so all he's lost is the potential of a sale (maybe). He's also possibly gaining some sales from people who pirate it and like it so license it, whereas they may not have felt like shelling out $200 on something they couldn't test drive first. I'm not saying piracy is good, I just hate the RIAA/MPAA argument that every pirated item equates to a lost sale. The protected forums are the best solution to the problem as then the value added by support via the forums makes a huge difference between a pirated version and a licensed version. Quote Windows 7 x64 - Q6700 @ 2.66GHz - 4GB RAM - 8800 GTX ZBrush - Blender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marleys Ghost Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 It comes down to "do I no longer have something I did have?". Why not the other way around do I now have something I should not have as I have not paid for it which was the intention all along? Theft is theft ... I'm sorry thats such a hard concept to grasp. using romantic language like "piracy" and "leeching" and Philosophising over the tangabiltiy of a product as some moral dichtomy between right and wrong is just plain silly. If you want an "item" and have no intention of getting that "item" legally .. then by definition you have to obtain it ilegally or not at all. Its all quite simple. Quote AMD Bulldozer FX-4 Quad Core 4100 Black Edition 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333Mhz Memory Gigabyte GeForce GTX 550 Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5 Windows 7 Home 64 bit BlitzMax 1.50 • Lua 5.1 • MaxGUI 1.41 • UU3D Pro • MessiahStudio Pro • Silo Pro 3D Coat • ShaderMap Pro • Hexagon 2 • Photoshop, Gimp & Paint.NET LE 2.5/3.4 • Skyline • UE4 • CE3 SDK • Unity 5 • Esenthel Engine 2.0 Marleys Ghost's YouTube Channel • Marleys Ghost's Blog "I used to be alive like you .... then I took an arrow to the head" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Intellectual property is certainly a convention like a patent or trademark is, and not the same as a physical object. However, if you want a market for software to exist, it is necessary to adhere to and enforce this convention. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Stealing $200 out of Josh's pocket is basically correct for piracy, but since it's software, we need to add a event factor. Let's call this event factor N. N can be smaller or higher than 1, depending on the consequence of events caused by the piracy act. The total harm caused is then calculated by $200 * N. N greater 1 means that someone has pirated the software, and caused also other people not to buy the software, since they are satisfied with the pirated version. This could apply for hobbyists who have no potential to make real games. They would still need to buy the engine for they private use though. N smaller 1 means that someone has pirated the software, but then bought it also, since he wanted to go public with his creations. He is still causing harm, since people waste their time to write stupid analysis like this post Harm is also caused by the delayed rate of interest as the payment did not occur before using the software. Harm is also caused by using pirate sites, which only increase piracy when people are using their services, and stealing internet bandwidth. Anyway, as long as N is greater than 0 (everyone who used parts of it without buying it), piracy is causing harm to the owner and creator of the software. Quote ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macklebee Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 There has been no theft of money from Josh's wallet because the money was never put there in the first place. The same could be said about stealing a car. The thief never paid for the car so there was no money lost? The point was Josh put time and money into the product, and $200 is what he is willing to receive to give that product to a consumer. Right. Stealing physical things is not quite the same as stealing software/"information" (<- whatever this is). The only difference between them is its harder to police these kinds of things. Everyone is under the impression that just because they are sitting at their house while they are doing these actions that they are not stealing. Everyone can rationalize whatever they want about it to make it seem like its perfectly acceptable or that its different for whatever reason, its still stealing. Just because its easier to get away with and it seems like everyone does it, does not make it less of a crime. Owner.Object = [X] value Thief = person who takes Owner.Object without giving [X] value to Owner Object can be replaced by any physical/intellectual property with any value given to [X], but Thief is always equal to a person that takes the object without giving the object's value to the owner. Quote Win7 64bit / Intel i7-2600 CPU @ 3.9 GHz / 16 GB DDR3 / NVIDIA GeForce GTX 590 LE / 3DWS / BMX / Hexagon macklebee's channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuego Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Since my situation is related, I have to admit I have "stolen" the engine (in your words) at first, because I am a very poor person, then as soon as I had $200, the first thing I have done was paying out and buying the engine. Before I have bought it, I have asked questions from the forum too. May be I am one of the "stupid users" that Josh wrote about, I don't know. I am sorry for that, and macklebee is right, they give more or less a penalty if you return to the store that you have stolen something from there and said "okay I have stoled that on that time, but I am here to pay for it". Here the decision belongs to the store owner, you can either call for the police or get the money and forget about the event. If I have costed you extra thing in the time before I have bought it (it took about two weeks for me to collect the necessary amount) please tell, I will find and pay it. Or if it is necessary for you to cancel my license, I can understand it surely respect your decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurens Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Pretty bold of you to come forward like that. Especially considering the fact you would be willing to give up your license, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuego Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 I like the engine a lot, I never would like to lose such an engine, because it is not easy to find the right engine on an affordable cost. But if this will be the only way to make things legal, I believe I have no authority to deny it. I am a software developer too, I never want another software developer to feel sorry about nerds who steals his effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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