Canardia Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I am missing certain low end features from LE2, which prevent me from doing a gameplay what I want to do. For example low end scissor volume shadows, which reach for long distances. With LE2's shadow maps the length and visibility is very limited, because it's using a texture for shadows, and not vectors. It would be nice if you could avoid using textures completely and use only long distance vectors for everything. That would make your game low end capable, while providing the same look and feel on all screen resolutions from mobile to cinema size gaming theatre. ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Yes, hear what you are saying Pixel. Staying with LE2 and make the best of it seems like the way to go. If I understand things correct, LE3 will not bring to much useful news if you are a non-mobile/iPhone/Android/Mac targeting person. Another possibility would be to choose another engine of course, but that would be quite painful now that I finally have got a code bank built up. Personally I think this direction will be an adventurous switch from the idea with LE2 as the main reason for getting into Leadwerks was just the high end graphics. I don't like this at all, but I hope I'm soooo wrong. Roland Strålberg Website: https://rstralberg.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixel Perfect Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I agree Roland. Leadwerks reputation and its brand image has always been strongly associated with High End Graphics and from what Josh is indicating this will return at some future point. I wish Josh luck but do think it's a brave decision to release a new engine without this. Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughty Alien Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 ..yeah..while i was not looking for LE3 for PC, its kind a surprise that PC version will be last in the row, but on other side, it seems that LE2 will live longer ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 With not splitting the forum between LE2 & 3 it'll be interesting to see how the community reacts. I mean I assume a good number of people will buy LE3 and some won't and will stick with LE2. Eventually LE3 will overtake LE2 in questions and posts, basically leaving LE2 people in the dust and most all LE2 responses will be "upgrade". It'll be interesting to see how that plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixel Perfect Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Whilst the forum is nice and fun if it's not based around an engine I'm using then its of little value to me, especially if support is discontinued for LE2. I guess if the continuing LE2 users number enough we might have to set our own forum up eventually. 1 Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wh1sp3r Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Well, i welcome a multiplatform ability, but i am really not interested in mobile developing. So, LE2 will lay in the dust with all members, who don't want to develop for mobile devices? OK then. -= Phenom II X4 965 3.4Ghz - ATI HD5870 - 6 GB DDR3 RAM - Windows 8 Pro 64x=- Website: http://www.flamewarestudios.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 So, LE2 will lay in the dust with all members, who don't want to develop for mobile devices? I don't Roland Strålberg Website: https://rstralberg.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I thought everyone, for the last three years, was complaining about wanting a better art pipeline and more gameplay support? How many times have I heard "Leadwerks is a graphics engine, not a game engine"? Since I have to do it anyways, mobile makes a good stepping stone to get those features into place, and then we can just scale up the renderer. Most of the new rendering features are already researched, and the engine is being designed to be extremely scalable. If you start your game when Leadwerks3D is released, you'll be able to upgrade the engine in the future, and the rendering will be upgraded. This community needs to focus more on game making, anyways. It could be a good thing for us. I'm pretty happy about the prospect of how the new features support gameplay mechanics. In the past, it was left entirely up to the end user to implement a system of their own. Soon we'll have a system in place that lets us made plug-and-play interactive objects. 1 My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wh1sp3r Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 That's fine when it meets my requirements, i will buy it. That means, i will not buy initial version, lol .. i will watch, how it will be going. -= Phenom II X4 965 3.4Ghz - ATI HD5870 - 6 GB DDR3 RAM - Windows 8 Pro 64x=- Website: http://www.flamewarestudios.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furbolg Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 For a pc developer (who wants to early adopt LE3 upgrade) this sounds bad. But if i remember correct - the LE3D Engine has the ability to externally add another renderer, doesnt it ? (in my mind is something about create an own renderer for the server part of a game ?!) If this was correct then the community maybe could write a temporarly wrapper for using LE2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixel Perfect Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 That's fine when it meets my requirements, i will buy it. That means, i will not buy initial version, lol .. i will watch, how it will be going. I think that pretty much sums up my position too, I don't need game play support although a better art pipeline is welcome. But the loss of high end graphics makes it a no buy for me as it stands currently. 1 Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I have an Android tablet that I'd like to try my hand at making a game on so I'll be buying this. I'm also hoping there will be a market for programmers to sell LE components too ,so would like to get into that in the early stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Red Ocktober Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 while i never thought Leadwerks was a game engine, i never thought it was a just a "graphics engine" or renderer... i always gave Leadwerks credit as being a framework... an api for 3d application development, tied to a rich, Windows only, renderer... which was relatively easy for a low to medium level coder to exploit... because of the rich graphics games are first apps that come to mind when using Leadwerks, but it should not be relegated soley to gamemaking... as such, i think it's significant now to consider what Josh just said actually means... or could mean... or doesn't mean at all This community needs to focus more on game making, anyways. to me this is a very disconcerting statement... especially when it comes from out own lil Steve Jobs (now before continuing, and not wanting to raise the hackles on the backs of the the gameplay vs. graphics evangelists, what i'm about to say has nothing to do with either side of the religion... so before it gets going... ) it must be taken as a mission statement... and as such i must assume that it is an indication of the direction LW will take... my take on this... well, i think that, for you (Josh) to assume that you know what the licensees will be doing with LW, and in addition, for you to assume that you know what's best for them... well, i dunno... you might be risking alienating and losing a large segment of the faithful... some of us won't be using LW3 to make games... some of us will take the Ester route, and not include any game making... and then there'll be those of us who definitely want the strong gameplay element... the question must be asked... will you be able to make LW3 capable of accomodating the various types of gameplay that might be requested... and if yes, should you even try... should it even be a function of LW3 to do this... right now, i see LW sailing of in the direction of the land of the non coder, pre packaged, connect the lines type of tool... prepackaged and ready for the masses... the main difference between 3 and 2 is that it will no longer be coupled to the rich graphics renderer (at first)... this sorta explains the shout out you made in the portal about prepare to meet Leadwerks Synapse... for those expecting a shiny new boxed release of a new version of Leadwerks that they can open, jump into, migrate their LW2 logic and artwork into and continue with their projects... i think you're gonna be verrrrry disappointed... i don't think it's gonna work like that... it looks like LW will be offered as a group of modules... all connected by the Synapse... which will probably be the core Leadwerks of the future... initially this Synapse will probably not be anywhere near the level of the current LW in many aspects... and much more than the current LW in others... oh well... the wave of the cell phone and tablet tsunami has swept us all up in it's power (and numbers)... the numbers are there (and growing) for any data centric business (like LW)... alienating a segment of the current lW faithfull is insignificant in comparison to the numbers of new users that should be attracted to the Synapse... alas, the world is changing... as so is Leadwerks... so must Leadwerks... this i understand (i dunno if i like it, but i understand it)... the new order will be thrust upon us... be brave... be brave... --Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 LE was never an graphics engine, which for example Ogre3D is. An graphics engine doesn't have these features, which LE has: - Sound - Bitmap fonts - Networking - Loading of 3D models - Loading of textures - Loading of sounds - Loading of fonts - Editing of scenes - Loading from pak files - Creating a main window - Lua scripting - Keyboard input - Mouse input - Physics ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Red Ocktober Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 eeerrr... isn't that exactly what i just said above... while i never thought Leadwerks was a game engine, i never thought it was a just a "graphics engine" or renderer... --Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benton Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Finally, Rick, someone here who is interested in Mobile. The reason nobody from this community wants to use Leadwerks for mobile is because they are here for PC development. If they ever wanted to develop for mobile, they would not be here. Leadwerks 3D will probably bring a lot of new people here go are interested in Mobile. This will be huge because if Josh can pull in bigger profits he will have that renderer ready sooner. It is obvious that other then Alien and Flexman, you guys are not doing game development to make any cash. If you were, you would be making it for mobile. It is basic business to go to where the money is. I don't want to spend a year developing a PC game that makes as much as an iPhone game that I made in four months. I hate mobile for gaming, but then again I hate Macs and they seem to be doing ok... Not using LE3 because of the first release having mobile graphics is ****. You are not going to finish your game and have to wait for better graphics. You can develop the game 100% and then add on better rendering, godrays, stuff like that. To me it's like not wanting to make that racing game in LE3 because the mobile renderer can't make the car look shiny. So you put off development until LE3 comes out with a better renderer. I totally agree that good graphics is important. But you guys have been working on your PC games for a long time, and if you adopt LE3 I don't think you will have a game ready for release before LE3 has a better renderer. You can still make the game with everything but the advanced renderer. I think it's kinda funny that you guys don't want to use LE3 until it gets a better renderer. And I suppose you don't want to start developing until you get that screen that is a couple inches bigger...and you don't want to start development until you get that better mouse...and your keyboard needs replacing. Meanwhile some people actually made a game. And nobody can still show me a game with AAA graphics that one indie made for PC and made money.... P.S. I wrote this on my iPod so sorry for grammar/spelling mistakes. Windows 7 Professional 64 bit, 16 gigs ram, 3.30GHz Quad Core, GeForce GTX 460 one gig, Leadwerks 2.5, Blender 2.62, Photoshop CS3, UU3D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 It's seem logical to me that since LE2 can't do mobile the majority of the people here aren't caring about mobile that much. No need to really argue over it because Josh has already put his eggs into that basket and it will bring new members who are interested in mobile. I'm more interested in PC but I'm not shutting out mobile completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Red Ocktober Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 you're wrong on some many fronts B... but i'll just respond to two... with just a lil food for thought... 1 Finally, Rick, someone here who is interested in Mobile. The reason nobody from this community wants to use Leadwerks for mobile is because they are here for PC development. If they ever wanted to develop for mobile, they would not be here. actually, there are many people here who want to develop for mobile... as well as pc, macintosh, xbox... also... be careful following Rick around... he is easily seduced by the new stuff, and his eyes will open up wide at the promise of "new and better"... (just kidding Rick... don't hurt me).. 2 And nobody can still show me a game with AAA graphics that one indie made for PC and made money.... these look pretty AAA to me... (Frictional Games) --Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 eeerrr... isn't that exactly what i just said above... --Mike Yes, I only explained it in more detail why it is not only an graphics engine ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 If Josh would have said that he will first release an alpha version which has only low end renderer, nobody would have complained about anything, but they would be happy to get to test out the first alpha version Like I said earlier, Josh's way of defining what's tech test, tech preview, alpha, beta, gamma, delta, version 0.0.0.0, version 0.0.0.1, version 1.0, etc... is not what most people are used to. He calls version 1.0 what I could call version 0.0.0.1, or other people would call alpha or tech preview. But then again FireFox calls 9.0 what is actually 2.1.9.0 ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Red Ocktober Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 If Josh would have said that he will first release an alpha version which has only low end renderer, nobody would have complained about anything, actually... i think he did say that... more than once... periods of transition are usually a lil disconcerting... not only is Leadwerks changing... the whole idea of computers and what we do with them is undergoing a quantum shift (of sorts)... Leadwerks is wisely (one viewpoint) trying to position itself at the leading edge of the wave... this will be a good thing for some... and bad thing for some... --Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 So why are people complaining about an alpha version then? Shouldn't they be happy to get to play with that, instead of waiting for LE3D 1.0, which might come out earliest at christmas? ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixel Perfect Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 If Josh would have said that he will first release an alpha version which has only low end renderer, nobody would have complained about anything, but they would be happy to get to test out the first alpha version You can call it what you want, that's completely irrelevant .... no high end graphics, no terrain, no buy ... simple as. I'll reserve judgement till the full version appears. Besides, testing something out is a bit different from having to buy it. It's ok for people that are wanting this kind of functionality and are not that bothered about the graphic quality, but for those who are and also need terrain then it's hardly an attractive proposition! Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Red Ocktober Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 So why are people complaining about an alpha version then? Shouldn't they be happy to get to play with that, instead of waiting for LE3D 1.0, which might come out earliest at christmas? i would venture to guess several answers that may suffice... but no real reasons... i cannot give you any valid reasons... 1- it's human nature to complain... 2- it's human nature to have high expectations... 3- some people just read and see what they want to see... 4- they were paid off by some people at Unity to incite discord and rioting over on this forum... 5- they had a bad morning... Duncan ran outta french crullers before they got there... 6- people have projects to get done, and they envisioned LW3 as the improved version of 2 that they'd be able to immediately use to get their projects done... --Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts