LE3 Release date when..?

[Road Kill Kenny]

While we are talking about LE3D. Josh is there any significant performance increase going form LE2 -> LE3D?

[Josh]

It's hard to make an objective test, but I think it will definitely be faster. The engine has no garbage collector (except for Lua, of course) and is written entirely in C++.

[Canardia]

Only shaders need OpenGL 2.0 (I actually tested this again on a machine which had no OpenGL 2.0 drivers), but everything else works fine on OpenGL 1.0+. Shaders are pretty useless anyway, as they restrict interaction with the game logic. The best would be if there was just a CPU which had 3000 cores, like most GPUs have, and no need for a graphics card anymore. But intel just sucks, ARM and nVidia know how to design cores.

[cassius]

So it looks like we can either buy the first version of le3 and then go thru various updates until the high end graphics option arrives or we can carry on with le2 until le3 matures and THEN purchase it.

I personaly will not be able to resist buying it early just to take a look at it.After all I can still run le2.

EDIT: I have had a great time using le2. Its better than sex ( well at my age it is)

[Benton]

Don't think it has been blown out of proportion? You guys keep saying that LE3 does not work for you because you need better graphics, yet Josh has said many many times that the LE3 renderer will be upgraded. He also said that parts of it are already done. I also proved that the mobile renderer can handle good graphics well. So basically you guys need really good visuals for the first part of your project, when you will mostly be programming and doing art. It makes no sense. Start making your game, and when the better renderer comes out add it on.

 

Haha Cassius, well put

[knocks]

Benton im sure most where under the impression le3 was to improve on le2 , it has nothing to do with graphics but more about improved features such as scene management, networking, physics, streaming terrain, prefab support, etc. etc. features requested by the community. Basically anyone with a current project has been ignored.

[Rick]

I would say LE 3 does provide improved features. He's working on better terrain. It has (what looks like amazing) pathfinding built in. Easier art pipline. Better support for non programmers. Nobody got ignored. All this and it still allows the people the flexibility to have these things ignored (for the most part) if they so choose to do their own thing like NA did. Sounds like the best of both worlds really.

[knocks]

I’m not denying the fact that we all will see improvements in time, just find odd the order of priority. No one purchased le2 to make mobile games.

[Josh]

I’m not denying the fact that we all will see improvements in time, just find odd the order of priority. No one purchased le2 to make mobile games.

It actually worked out this way because of the need for multiplatform support, and the incredible scalability that involves. It's easier to account for everything from the start and design an engine once I know all the constraints on all platforms, keeping the high-end requirements in mind.

[Pixel Perfect]

Don't think it has been blown out of proportion? You guys keep saying that LE3 does not work for you because you need better graphics, yet Josh has said many many times that the LE3 renderer will be upgraded.

Well speaking for one of 'those guys' you just don't seem to be listening as I have repeatedly said I don't need any of the new features in the current proposed LE3 release and I don't need improved graphics as I already have fantastic graphics in LE2. Why on earth would I buy it? I have multiple path finding options and real AI capability already which surpasses or equals anything that is going into LE3. I'd like the terrain but it's not there yet, if it appears I might consider buying it then.

 

Sure LE3 will be great for lots of people, no ones denying that, but please don't try and make out that LE3 is everything to everybody because that's just silly.

[LEFans]

How much money to upgrade from LE2 to LE3D?

[Rick]

Pixel, is it safe to say that LE3D was never for someone like you then and you were never going to buy it anyway? The terrain aspect is interesting because it's 1 thing that you'd have to change a lot of your existing LE related code for because I don't believe LE2 will easily translate to LE3D. Doesn't even seem worth it really because you could make your own terrain routines like you made pretty much everything else right?

 

I'm thinking Benton's "everyone" is basically the majority. You and NA and a couple others who have already made all these extra features LE3D will bring are a very small % of the community so saying "everyone" is a general sense is fairly accurate given that you guys were probably never going to buy upgrades like this anyway. I mean anytime "everyone" is used it hardly ever really means everyone. They are just general comments we all make from time to time. "Come on, everyone likes rock music". For you 1%ers what kind of upgraded LE would you have purchased though? Just the terrain? Bug fixes only to LE2? Are you 100% happy with LE2 and see no need for Josh to upgrade?

[Guest Red Ocktober]

I'm thinking Benton's "everyone" is basically the majority.

 

i'm really, really, really interested in how you could extrapolate out from any kind of reasoning, a position that would validate such a conclusion ("everyone is basically the majority")...

 

i find this absolutely amazing... what was the process, if there was one, that brought you to this conclusion... or was your conclusion based on a "feeling", for lack of a better word...

 

i just had to ask (insatiable curiosity ) please don't take it the wrong way...

 

--Mike

[Naughty Alien]

..mmm..well..I still expect LE2.x to be updated, in terms of compatibility with new GPU's, and things like that..also, LE3 in its initial form, is indeed interesting for me, because I was looking for expansion to small devices, as a business model test (i had talk with Josh about it), but I am also very much surprised that LE3 will not shine on PC initially, thats all..

[Rick]

@Red, the example I gave was trying to show what I mean. You've never made a statement like that? "Come on, everyone likes pizza". The statement is clearly wrong because not everyone does like pizza. If you haven't used it like that then I guess you're better than I in using the English language.It's just a general statement to represent that the majority does like pizza which I'm sure can be proven by a survey. Didn't LE do a survey of what people wanted in it? I'll see if I can find that to see the results.

[cassius]

Will it be possible to do a terrain in le2 and use it in le3? Or in 3dws for use in le3?

[Guest Red Ocktober]

@Rick

so... there was no reasoning (logical, rational, or otherwise) behind your conclusion then... is that what you're saying?

 

--Mike

[Rick]

@NA Fair enough. What small devices are you looking at? Phones specifically or you have something else in mind?

 

@Red I guess it was based on my human experience dealing with people and how they talk. If you don't deem that valid then that's that. No sense in going down the road we both know we've been down before.

[Guest Red Ocktober]

If you don't deem that valid then that's that.

i'm not passing any sort of judgment, i was just trying to understand your logic (or whatever)... part of my "experience in dealing with people" (though i see it more as associating with people as opposed to dealing with them)

 

but you're right... lets let the thread get back on topic...

 

--Mike

[Pixel Perfect]

Pixel, is it safe to say that LE3D was never for someone like you then and you were never going to buy it anyway? The terrain aspect is interesting because it's 1 thing that you'd have to change a lot of your existing LE related code for because I don't believe LE2 will easily translate to LE3D. Doesn't even seem worth it really because you could make your own terrain routines like you made pretty much everything else right?

 

I'm thinking Benton's "everyone" is basically the majority. You and NA and a couple others who have already made all these extra features LE3D will bring are a very small % of the community so saying "everyone" is a general sense is fairly accurate given that you guys were probably never going to buy upgrades like this anyway. I mean anytime "everyone" is used it hardly ever really means everyone. They are just general comments we all make from time to time. "Come on, everyone likes rock music". For you 1%ers what kind of upgraded LE would you have purchased though? Just the terrain? Bug fixes only to LE2? Are you 100% happy with LE2 and see no need for Josh to upgrade?

 

You almost make it sound Rick like I'm not entitled to an opinion by virtue of being in a minority, which is a little disturbing! Whilst it's true that I was never likely to buy the first release of LE3 (and I have made no secret of this) you cannot deny that the backwards step graphically on the PC platform was unexpected and took many of us by surprise. All we have done is voice that surprise.

 

If LE3 offers sufficient added value then yes of course I'd consider buying it, it just doesn't offer enough at the moment given that I'm not really motivated to develop games aimed at the mobile marketplaces.

 

I don't necessarily accept that the vast majority of the existing LE2 customer base bought the product for anything other than development of games for the PC platform as the move to mobile device support is a relatively recent thing! There were always other engine options for developing mobile games out there if that was their primary intention. I accept that there is a sizeable amount who are interested in also developing games for the mobile device marketplace though and LE3 represents a great opportunity for those.

 

With regard to your observation that I could build my own terrain solutions, sure I probably could, but do not equate being able to with desiring to. The two do not always go hand in hand.

 

In terms of what I'm ever likely to achieve on my own yes I'm happy with LE2 as it stands. It would have been nice to have had extended support for terrain textures and 'in editor' scaling but every engine has some constraints. It's more about what you are able to craft from the tools at your disposal than the tools themselves.

 

Whilst it's probably not for me I do welcome LE3 and look forward to seeing what people develop with it. I hope that Josh's vision of a system that enables more artistic based users to realise games is one that bears fruit and the mobile games band wagon was always going to be one to jump on from a commercial (sales) point of view.

[Guest Red Ocktober]

You almost make it sound Rick like I'm not entitled to an opinion by virtue of being in a minority

 

exactly...

 

which is why i was curious about the reasoning behind his conclusions... but hey, lets move on

 

--Mike

[Rick]

Fair enough Pixel. You of course are welcome to your opinion. I'm sometimes in the minority myself so I know where that's coming from

 

Also anything I would say about majority doesn't 100% apply to existing LE customer base. There are more potential customers for LE than there are actual members. I'm guessing we don't see anything that Josh is seeing in terms of companies or individuals who email him saying how they would love to use LE but it doesn't have xyz features so they can't do it. He seems to hint from time to time of these messages that he's getting which are most likely 1 of many things influencing his decisions.

 

It sort of sounds like Josh might look at wrapping up LE2 renderer with LE3D which would be really cool and help everyone!

 

As with everything I guess we wait and see what really happens with LE3D. It'll be interesting anyway!

[Pixel Perfect]

Fair enough Pixel. You of course are welcome to your opinion. I'm sometimes in the minority myself so I know where that's coming from

No problem

 

Also anything I would say about majority doesn't 100% apply to existing LE customer base. There are more potential customers for LE than there are actual members. I'm guessing we don't see anything that Josh is seeing in terms of companies or individuals who email him saying how they would love to use LE but it doesn't have xyz features so they can't do it. He seems to hint from time to time of these messages that he's getting which are most likely 1 of many things influencing his decisions.

I agree, I suspect the potential marketplace for the new engine is huge if he gets the pricing right but I have to add as a word of caution that sometimes those who shout the most are those who get heard but it doesn't always mean they are right!

 

 

It sort of sounds like Josh might look at wrapping up LE2 renderer with LE3D which would be really cool and help everyone!

 

As with everything I guess we wait and see what really happens with LE3D. It'll be interesting anyway!

That would be a great addition to the first release if it proves possible and yes, a lot is still 'up in the air' and it will be both interesting and exciting to see what finally emerges.

[Josh]

FYI, even if Leadwerks experiences 0 market share growth (which I don't think will be the case!) we'll be doing just fine. There's a lot of Leadwerks Engine and 3D World Studio users out there. This time around is a little different because I am trying to put something out that is more polished at release.

[Furbolg]

Sorry if i missed the part but whats about an LE2 Interface for the first time ?