LE 3 speed :

[Josh]

The whole game industry is built on native code, and there isn't a single game engine out there that lets you develop 3D mobile games with C++. Something like 70% of the games in the iOS App Store are written with native code, and there's nothing out there that accelerates that process...except Leadwerks 3. I have people emailing me every day who have never used Leadwerks before, asking when they can buy it, because they want to get into mobile but don't want to trade the speed and flexibility of native code for a "walled garden" development environment.

 

We're effectively unlocking iOS and Android for the bulk of C++ programmers, who have had no way into mobile until now. Their only alternatives were to build their own cross-platform 3D engine or try to recompile an open-source engine that wasn't designed to scale for mobile.

 

I'm perfectly happy to let Shiva and Unity have the script kiddies. We'll take the programmers who appreciate an object-oriented C++ API, please.

 

Oh wait, Unity just paid someone to add another third-party API on top of ten-year-old legacy code so they can cross-promote with a new brand name! I better quit! XD

 

Just wait, you can't really understand it until you see it because nothing like this has ever been done before. It's all basically the Leadwerks vision of a clear API and intuitive tools. (I've been making 3D artist tools longer than I've been making 3D engines.) It's just the Leadwerks idea carried out completely, with some nice extras we found along the way.

[Road Kill Kenny]

I'm sorry to say but i think the situation will be exactly the same for LE3 for the reasons stated in replies above.

 

I remember a thread that started a while ago titled, "What are you going to make with LE3?" (or a similar title). I think someone should start a thread titled, "What have you finished with LE2 in the x number of years it's been out?" but I don't think there would be many posts. The nature of the renderer pulled people to LE who had the romantic notion of making a AAA game or similar; and for obvious reasons - the realtime shadows etc. For small teams and hobby users everyone knows this is just what it is, a romantic bedroom idea.

 

Now, Josh is trying to buck this trend by opening up the mobile market, which should increase the user base; or will it?! I don't think it will (at all). infact, even a percentage of his current 'loyal' userbase won't upgrade because the renderer isn't up to that of LE2. I think the difficulty for LE moving forward will be to find it's place. It is a great engine, no doubt about it, but.... whereas once it was the only affordable engine with great visuals, it no longer is. It is now trying to enter an already saturated mobile market, where it will struggle to compete.

 

On the question of speed etc... i agree that the engine will look nice on a GTX680, but if you took those system specs to a publisher, they would probably laugh at you and say, "Pass!".

 

 

@fallingbrickwork

I partly agree with you and partly don't. For one I agree that the "What will you make with LE3" is pretty damn sad cuz the most common thing was make an FPS games. Not that I have anything against FPS game but, because the basic of an FPS are so flopping easy to create, they pretty much have to be AAA to make it anywhere in the market and that can be too much work graphically... There aren't that many indie FPS games for a reason.\

 

On the other hand I don't understand why you think that LE2's draw was the fantasy of creating AAA games. Sure some people are stupid and come here saying they want to make the next AAA crysis or MMO.... however, the people here that actually know how to do anything with the engine are and have been working on things more feasible. Every community has these people that scream AAA this AAA that and they often are the majority..

 

Also I don't understand why having a good renderer means you want AAA. Heck 'Rendering' quality and graphical art quality are two freaking different things. For a AAA game you need both good quality rendering and really good art. The art part is the hardest because there can be so much for a 1 or 2 man team to deal with... But why the hell not have a good renderer to offset the lacking quality of graphics in an indie game? My game certainly doesn't have AAA graphics but heck it looks a damn lot better with dynamic shadows... As an indie dev I'll take any advantage I can graphically if It is already done for me to offset my lacking artwork.

 

there isn't a single game engine out there that lets you develop 3D mobile games with C++.

 

This is simply not true. I won't say what it is in fear of starting an engine war.

[macklebee]

..bug fixes is an issue to avoid in a 3D game engine.

huh? bugs need to be fixed or don't have any bugs?

 

LE 3 is also going in that direction to open up to 3D artist or simple beginner programmers.

The language reamins to be easy, and it seems lot of stuff will be now available by default (make the world and entities placement, load all that with one command etc ... )

I have seen you post this before and its even been stated to you a couple of times that LE2 can already load a scene and all of its entities with one command - Its called LOADSCENE()... ffs...

 

Yes i believe in LE 3 caus fo it's new fluid and quick workflow, it's scripting from what i have seen seems to be in some way like what is done elsewhere (you could make some game entirely in script it seems).

It will have new visual stuff for some similar programming, you will be able it seems (i don't have tested anything) to create some sort of tools or plugins to incorporate on the editor.

these statements are meaningless as you have not actually tried using LE3 or figuring out what your workflow will be or much less know if you will be able to make a game... my guess if you cannot do anything with LE2, i really do not see you doing much better with LE3 no matter how much Josh tries to make it for "artists" or as the next version of FPSCreator... As far as plugins for the editor, Josh has stated repeatedly there is no plugin feature.

 

for the rest... tldr...

[Josh]

I have seen you post this before and its even been stated to you a couple of times that LE2 can already load a scene and all of its entities with one command - Its called LOADSCENE()... ffs...

Leadwerks 3 supports entity placement of camera, pivots, character controllers, etc. Leadwerks Engine 2 just supported models with a script to create an entity, and it was sort of convoluted.

[fallingbrickwork]

On the other hand I don't understand why you think that LE2's draw was the fantasy of creating AAA games. Sure some people are stupid and come here saying they want to make the next AAA crysis or MMO.... however, the people here that actually know how to do anything with the engine are and have been working on things more feasible. Every community has these people that scream AAA this AAA that and they often are the majority..

 

You have to think back to when Leadwerks first appeared (sorry, i'm not sure when you joined the throng). I'm talking maybe 3+ years ago. At that time there weren't any high quality renderers out there. A lot of us were probably playing with Darkbasic, the c++ version or irrlicht etc. None of these had realtime shadows etc. Then we saw Leadwerks and went WOW! For once, we (in our bedrooms) could make scene like the pros did. That is what i meant by the fantasy of AAA (and we are talking before AAA was even a term probably).

 

Also I don't understand why having a good renderer means you want AAA. Heck 'Rendering' quality and graphical art quality are two freaking different things. For a AAA game you need both good quality rendering and really good art. The art part is the hardest because there can be so much for a 1 or 2 man team to deal with... But why the hell not have a good renderer to offset the lacking quality of graphics in an indie game? My game certainly doesn't have AAA graphics but heck it looks a damn lot better with dynamic shadows... As an indie dev I'll take any advantage I can graphically if It is already done for me to offset my lacking artwork.

 

Not even sure where this paragraphs is aiming at?!... I'm trying to talk about LE finding it's place within the engine market. Like I just said, when i first saw LE it was jaw-dropping.... it's not really that case anymore. All the big engines are now available for bedroom/hobby/indie users. LE can't really play that card now. And the thought of hanging the entire thing on offering C++ for mobile dev doesn't really sound that watertight to me... Just if Temple Run 2 devs care about C++ and all the baggage?! They are quite happy with their 20million downloads and some scripting.

[macklebee]

[/size]Leadwerks 3 supports entity placement of camera, pivots, character controllers, etc. Leadwerks Engine 2 just supported models with a script to create an entity, and it was sort of convoluted.

i do all that with models w/ scripts - it works even if convoluted.

 

Not even sure where this paragraphs is aiming at?!... I'm trying to talk about LE finding it's place within the engine market. Like I just said, when i first saw LE it was jaw-dropping....

i think its referring to multiple statements here from several of the new LE3 fanboys (that believe that LE3 will magically make a game for them with one click of a mouse) that we don't need the quality renderer from LE2 because none of us are making AAA games. But like you said and what Ken is alluding to as well, the renderer was exactly what drew me to LE in the first place. I look forward to LE3 getting up to the same level of graphics/features as LE2.

[Road Kill Kenny]

Although I do like the fact that you can make mobile apps with C++ in LE3.. I wouldn't say it's the best selling point.

[Pixel Perfect]

I'm perfectly happy to let Shiva and Unity have the script kiddies. We'll take the programmers who appreciate an object-oriented C++ API, please.

Really, whilst I'm all for a C++ OOP environment that does seem to be flying in the face of what a large percentage of the LE3 wannabes seem to be wanting. Are you saying that LE3 is aimed specifically at programmers again as was the case with LE2 whilst the majority seem to want less coding and more automation? Is this an interesting final twist emerging or are you simply relying on the programming community's altruistic donation of code to enable the more artistic members to realise their own game development dreams? If that's the case then that seems strangely at odds with not providing a plugin type framework which really aids community development and integration!

[Josh]

The big advantages of Leadwerks:

• Speed and flexibility when you build games with native code.
  
• CSG tools so you can build game levels from scratch right in the editor.
  
• Lua script integration with a flowgraph makes it easy to add game behavior that and can be mixed with C++. For example, it's very simple to add scripts to make opening doors, flashing lights, game level changes, spawning enemies, etc.
  

 

If these things don't appeal to you, perhaps you are not a potential customer. I'm not interested in making a bad copy of anyone else's engine, I want to bring our own vision to life.

 

I can't really expect you to imagine it from a verbal description, so just wait a little longer and you'll see it in action.

[fallingbrickwork]

I have people emailing me every day who have never used Leadwerks before, asking when they can buy it, because they want to get into mobile but don't want to trade the speed and flexibility of native code for a "walled garden" development environment.

 

Open up your email and total up just how many people have asked this over the last year? 10, 100, 1000? (yes, i am only pulling your leg).

 

I know you are passionate about OOP, C++ and all the rest, but 99.999999% of mobile devs probably aren't. Kids making Temple Run clones will probably struggle with drag and drop and a bit of scripting, let alone C++ and OOP; and this is the market i guess you need to tap into to make it a success; maybe you have other plans. Who are you thinking of targeting/and is going to buy LE3 (with regards to mobile dev)?

[Josh]

I know you are passionate about OOP, C++ and all the rest, but 99.999999% of mobile devs probably aren't. Kids making Temple Run clones will probably struggle with drag and drop and a bit of scripting, let alone C++ and OOP; and this is the market i guess you need to tap into to make it a success; maybe you have other plans. Who are you thinking of targeting/and is going to buy LE3 (with regards to mobile dev)?

Our market researched revealed that the majority of mobile games are written with native code. There's good reason for that. The speed and flexibility of C++ is unmatched by anything else, and on mobile devices performance becomes even more critical.

 

For simple games and modular behavior use Lua. it's been used in hundreds of AAA games, and it integrates perfectly with C++. The new script editor with debugging and code stepping makes Lua a breeze to work with.

 

We're not trying to please everyone, we're just sticking to the game industry standards.

[karmacomposer]

Leadwerks 3 supports entity placement of camera, pivots, character controllers, etc. Leadwerks Engine 2 just supported models with a script to create an entity, and it was sort of convoluted.

 

I had a lot of respect and admiration for you Josh, but now I am just plain pissed off. I have invested a ton of time trying to learn LE2.5 and BlitzMax along with setting up a proper asset pipeline that will work for me. Now you say this???

 

So what you are saying Josh is that you sold people an engine you accidentally or knowingly crippled or knew it was, as you put it, convoluted and now LE3 is going to save everyone due to its perfection. Hmmm. Will you say how bad LE3 was when LE4 is about to be released because LE3 was so much more . . . convoluted.

 

I WAS going to use LE2.5 to create my story/game but now with these words and rhetoric, I will look elsewhere.

 

Mike

[Road Kill Kenny]

Heck... C++ all the way imo

[Josh]

I had a lot of respect and admiration for you Josh, but now I am just plain pissed off. I have invested a ton of time trying to learn LE2.5 and BlitzMax along with setting up a proper asset pipeline that will work for me. Now you say this???

 

So what you are saying Josh is that you sold people an engine you accidentally or knowingly crippled or knew it was, as you put it, convoluted and now LE3 is going to save everyone due to its perfection. Hmmm. Will you say how bad LE3 was when LE4 is about to be released because LE3 was so much more . . . convoluted.

 

I WAS going to use LE2.5 to create my story/game but now with these words and rhetoric, I will look elsewhere.

 

Mike

There's a lot of design decisions I didn't realize could be better until I had been using Leadwerks Engine 2 for about a year. The Leadwerks 3 design has been a process of expanding on the things we got right, and revising the things we got wrong.

[gordonramp]

I'm perfectly happy to let Shiva and Unity have the script kiddies. We'll take the programmers who appreciate an object-oriented C++ API, please.

 

It's this type of elitism that caused a backlash during the LE2 saga. Not a positive approach.

If this is truly what you think Josh then why have scripting at all? LE3 could have been the ultimate Game Engine for the serious C++ programmer.

[Road Kill Kenny]

Someone needs to make an engine for programmers so I don't blame him in this regard. I for one am sick of them all being about scripting and padded walls.

However, I'm rather confused because a lot of what LE3 seems to be is padding on the walls so that the n00bs don't cry?

[Rick]

@karma You do understand not everyone knows everything at any given point in time right? Josh didn't know then what he does now. Software grows over time. Do you get upset with all software companies when they come out with new features because they didn't have them before? Come on man. Josh was stating what he learned since LE2 was created.

 

This all comes down to what Pixel often says. Just wait and see. No sense in getting all pissed about a product you've yet to see and work with. Either give it a chance or don't. Life continues either way.

[YouGroove]

However, I'm rather confused because a lot of what LE3 seems to be is padding on the walls so that the n00bs don't cry?

 

Your goal seems to be programming all yourself, you could even want to program DirectX directly ? why not ?

Because you love programming.

 

But there are lot of people and teams that just want the 3D Tools , and just program the gameplay could it be in Lua or C++. Like lot of people using engines like UDK.

Unreal 3 games just prooves that, the core features, shader features, advanced graphic features are made by a team, you don't have to worry about all 3D advanced features, they bring that to you.

So you worry only on your game content, gameplay, and how to sell it.

 

 

There are different types of 3D engines for different style of people.

You want to program tools and 3D stuff , just use Ogre 3D or another programming engine or directly Direct X ?

Your Goal is MAKE AND FINISH A GAME, not spend time programming 3D features , than you need some editor with advanced and fluid Workflow for you and perhaps your team.

Making a game is already a very big task when all tools and gameplay framework exists :

* world design

* level design

* gameplay

* features

* dialog

* cinematics

* characters and monsters

* particle and effects

* optimisation and performance

* advertisment

* seek some investors

* gameplay and levels test

* bug fixes

etc ...

So this is lot lot of work indeed.

 

All depends on what you consider yourself :

Programming a game

or

Making the 3D content of the game.

 

LE3 remains LE2 core functions it seems, people i think that like to program will be able to continue to program in C++ their own gameplay frameworks, their own tool , their own game programmed from basement and based on LE 3 dlls and API.

And LE 3 brings evolution, it opens more to 3D artists with more oriented scripting , better editors etc ...

I think this is enought choice and room fro programmers and non programmer (or less programmers)

 

But i can understand people thinking in programming only, what matters to them si not the quality of the 3D content but programming a gameplay framework and other stuff it seems (perhaps i'm wrong).

[Pixel Perfect]

I partly agree with you but I still think you are going to find that artists are still in a position where they struggle to realise anything but the simplest games even with LE3. Flowcharts are great for simple stuff but anything more complex becomes a complex exercise in itself! The same with scripting.

 

In reality, for anything other than a very simplistic game, Artists and Programmers need to team up. This is why you will find programmers being a little sceptical about engines designed to automate game play functionality.

 

I am however prepared to eat my words if need be as most of us have not seen LE3 in any form yet

[Road Kill Kenny]

@Groove

No... my goal is not programming... my goal is to make an indie game... and to date I've done that a hell of a lot better than you....

 

Look at TJHeldna... he is probably the best artist in this community but he still codes like a king.... The typical I'm an artist excuse just seems to be a cop out for not wanting to do any code yourself. Heck I do almost all the art for my own game as well... you seem to think I just code.. wrong.

 

So for the last flopping time... stop putting people into programming and artist boxes..... There are only 2 boxes in the indie world... those who make games and those who talk about making games... Which box do you currently fit in I wonder?

 

Edit:

However, I'm rather confused because a lot of what LE3 seems to be is padding on the walls so that the n00bs don't cry?

 

Your goal seems to be programming all yourself, you could even want to program DirectX directly ? why not ?

Because you love programming.

Also stop acting like you know me..... just because I'm a programmer doesn't mean it's all I think about.... I code because it is required to freaking make games.... Something people should learn to understand. You seem to think I code some low level ****.. when really a hell of a lot of my programming is gameplay... and if you think gameplay is simple to program then you're sorely mistaken. The hardest stuff I've every coded is gameplay, AI and NPC behaviours.

[YouGroove]

Yes flowgraphs can become problematic.

Programmers and 3D artists in a team is the best solution indeed.

But there is different sort of programmers :

- programmer that need to program tools, new 3D features, shaders etc ... or core 3D engine things or features.

- programmers that will program mainly gameplay , easy UI or shaders and special effect programmers

 

Well LE3 will remain the core API for programmers to program only, so i think pure programmers should not worry

And 3D artists mainly oriented people , targetting a game should be happy.

I don't think it's for nothing if UDK has turned to :

- indie game making world

- mobile games

- visual programming language

 

You can find lot of 2D engines giving great features and tools to non programmers to make games, even with simple script to customize and mke their own special features.

For 3D engines same thing is happening , you will find them to become lot more complete in 3D tools and features , lot more open to pure 3D creators could it be by some scripting language, or visual programming tools.

 

And this way makes easy interaction between a programmer and a 3D artist, they work with same tools ,share same content, and the programmers can add script or other stuff, and the 3D artist can add 3D models and put/modify some gameplay using script or visual language.

 

And don't forget anything alaways changes and evolves.

Gaming market changing (casual games for people that won't spend hours playing , but just want fun during some hour or two here and here). Tablets becoming more and more powerfull, mobile phones everywhere.

 

And game makers market is changing , but be rassured you will always find little 3D engines for pure programmers if they want to write their own stuff. And other non specialist programmers just asking for tools and features and don't want to re write what already exsists somewhere.

 

I think we are fra from the main subject that is LE 3 speed

[Pixel Perfect]

And game makers market is changing , but be rassured you will always find little 3D engines for pure programmers if they want to write their own stuff.

I think you are somewhat missing the point. Programming IS required in order to add any degree of originality to a game, no matter what engine you're starting with. It's not about pure programmers (I really don't understand this terminology anyway) wanting to write their own stuff .... it's simply still, in this juncture of time, an absolute necessity!

[Canardia]

It should be stopped to use personal attacks, like "you are", etc.... It's really annoying, because Paulo Coelho also said that intelligent people discuss what was said, and not about the person who said it.

 

Oh, actually it was Eleanor Roosevelt who said it originally:

 

“Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

― Eleanor Roosevelt

[Pixel Perfect]

I was addressing YouGroove directly and his opinions with my own. I see no issue with that. It distinguishes his contribution from anyone elses. It's a discussion not a personal attack.

 

Have you not noticed that a quote specifies the person directly too! It wasn't required here because my response was straight after his post.

 

By the way ... inferring I am not intelligent by addressing someone personally is paramount to a personal attack You might want to think on that lol

[Roland]

I'm a programmer who loves art and also making music.

Even worse .. I have had my own company

Damn ... I wont fit into any category.

 

Lets not drive this (in my view a bit insane discussion) into something that splits the community.

Just wait until you see what LE3 actually is or isn't and then judge.

 

We all are driven by our own goals. No goal is a bad goal. A goal is a goal for a person. Right.

So weather you like programming or making art it doesn't matter as long as you follow your personal goal.

 

My personal goal is to finish the SCOT game and I don't think swapping engine's now and then will

get me any closer to that goal. A nice team and some hard work is what its all about.

 

I might be totally wrong, but I have to live with that then

I would not even dream of swapping engine just BEFORE the new version is out, that would just be silly.

Better wait and see whats in the basket before throwing it away.