How many games have been made by LW ?

[Quast]

I just wondering about games that have been made by LW since LW launched

How many games ?

[Pixel Perfect]

There's a selection of small games and demos made with Leadwerks in the Assets store. Otherwise, there have been other unpublished games which do not appear there and also one published game HOODWINK which uses some elements of the Leadwerks engine (mainly the renderer).

 

LE2 has never really reached that critical mass, in terms of users, to generate many games and it's still a releatively young engine too. Maybe LE3 will.

[BES]

LE2 has the ability to make some quality games ...even after LE3 is released, I am kind of surprised about the lack of released games though...

 

But it takes a while to make games ..especially if solo ..

[Furbolg]

You should also remember most of this community are hobbyists.

 

Create a complete game with good gameplay takes time, i guess many people just prototyping and/or try some concepts before they start their real project. Or maybe they abandon their project and start new one.

[cassius]

Yeah. Hobbyists will always be in the majority with most game engines. Nothing wrong with that, it doesn;t stop others from making commecial games.

[Pixel Perfect]

You should also remember most of this community are hobbyists.

 

Create a complete game with good gameplay takes time, i guess many people just prototyping and/or try some concepts before they start their real project. Or maybe they abandon their project and start new one.

I agree too. The majority are hobbists like myself. On top of that LE2 has really only been stable since version 2.3 and it took a while longer to iron out some of the show stopping bugs. Based on that I wouldn't have expected most peoples projects to have been maturing until later this year. I'll certainly be sticking with LE2 to finish what I started but it's a way off yet.

[Road Kill Kenny]

I think the reason is because LE 2.5 is more of a rendering engine and not much of a 'game engine'. Sure it has some neat game engine stuff. However, you have to do a hell of a lot to it in order to get it to a place where you can make something out of it. It's indeed fun doing that.... however, it seems to end up having a lot of people releasing tools that make it into a game engine.... therefore not many games get made. I am assuming that Josh plans to stop that with LE3 by adding in a lot of the game engine stuff that LE2.5 missed.

 

Heck I probably spent 70% of my time in LE2.5 implementing things that pretty much any game would require. My animator and sound systems for example. My UI System. Pathfinding. All things that don't need too much variance between games. It is fun making those things but it does make your development a lot longer.

[Pixel Perfect]

It certainly is an API for programmers, which is part of the beauty of it as it allows you to build an engine around it without being shackled by decisions already having been made for you. The downside is this does indeed take a lot of work and often a major learning curve on the part of the would be engine designer, however this is the best possible experience anyone could acquire if you really want to get the most out of a game engine.

 

LE3 should offer an easier route for those less predisposed to programming game engines but to what degree is as yet still an unknown factor.

[Rick]

If Josh wants to make a game engine, he has to lay out the rules and guidelines for a game. If he wants to make a game API then he's done it. He has said before he doesn't like forcing those kind of rules on people, but that's exactly why there are no games made with LE so far. Enforce a structure and I think you'll get more games created BUT you'll piss off the people who want the freedom. I think he could get the best of both words by wrapping more structure around the API and releasing both, and I think LE3 is more like that then LE2 but I still sort of get the sense he doesn't want to force structure which will always mean the odds of a game being finished is slim with the small community LE has.

[Road Kill Kenny]

If Josh wants to make a game engine, he has to lay out the rules and guidelines for a game. If he wants to make a game API then he's done it. He has said before he doesn't like forcing those kind of rules on people, but that's exactly why there are no games made with LE so far. Enforce a structure and I think you'll get more games created BUT you'll piss off the people who want the freedom. I think he could get the best of both words by wrapping more structure around the API and releasing both, and I think LE3 is more like that then LE2 but I still sort of get the sense he doesn't want to force structure which will always mean the odds of a game being finished is slim with the small community LE has.

 

Ideally I think the best way to have it would be to have all that stuff that is generally generic between games but don't force people to use it. You could have 3 ways of doing it:

 

1. Use the default feature

2. Extend / alter the default feature

3. Create your own from scratch using the "base API"

 

If you consider allowing for the 3 options then you don't piss anyone off really.

 

In LE3 Josh has done it in some ways. For instance he has made an animation script. I think it's horrible that it is a script but I bet most of you like it that way. Anyway... the script will assist with character animation.... you can choose to use that script or make your own method of doing it... Therefore, n00bs get their easy generic animations... programmers can make there own.

 

If you did it carefully in C++ you could easily have a character base class (for example) and you may want a bit more or a bit different functionality. Well use the LE base character class to derive a new class and overwrite some of the functions to do what you want to do.. This gives you a kind of mid level access.

 

So I think it it quite possible to not piss off everyone by choosing just one way through.

 

Edit: wow just re-read my own post... bad bad English... oh well cbf fixing it.. good luck

[Rick]

I agree that Josh should make C++ game specific functionality. A character class, a weapons class, etc. If you want to use it, it's there, if not then don't. If you want to extend it then do it. He's basically putting all that stuff into scripts vs C++.

[Canardia]

Josh should leave the Leadwerks engine without game engine specific things, but rather a multimedia engine.

He could then make a seperate game engine which uses Leadwerks engine, that's what basically everyone is doing who is making a game with Leadwerks. I don't want that Leadwerks engine is bloated with game engine specific stuff, because I'm going to use it also for business apps and tools.

[Rick]

@Canardian Yeah, I think that's very valid. He could sell both separately easy enough I think.

[Canardia]

He could even sell 3DWS6 seperately, which is just Leadwerks Editor. Then everyone could buy what they really need, without paying too much or too less.

Maybe somehow like this:

 

Leadwerks API: 200 gold

Leadwerks Editor: 200 gold

Leadwerks Game Framework: 200 gold

Leadwerks Engine (includes API and Editor): 300 gold (you save 100 gold)

Leadwerks Game Engine (includes Game Framework, API and Editor): 400 gold (you save 200 gold)

Upgrade from Engine (or API and Editor) to Game Engine: 150 gold

 

*gold is a virtual currency, the exchange rate to USD or EUR is not known.

[YouGroove]

Leadwerks API: 200 gold

Leadwerks Editor: 200 gold

Leadwerks Game Framework: 200 gold

Leadwerks Engine (includes API and Editor): 300 gold (you save 100 gold)

Leadwerks Game Engine (includes Game Framework, API and Editor): 400 gold (you save 200 gold)

Upgrade from API and Editor to Engine: 150 gold

Upgrade from Engine to Game Engine: 150 gold

 

Too much complicated, even if some otehr 3D engine also make you pay for tutorials and code.

 

I would prefer :

Complete engine and framework, editor : PRICE A

Complete engine and framework, editor + source for some stuff : PRICE B

Perhaps

Engine wihtout editor : PRICE C

 

***********************************************

 

The engine have lot of features, but remains programmer in LE 2.5.

(i remember you have to serach for entities names to manage them, and the world you made was not saved (no lights , no effects even if some people have coded a real save/load world)

So 3D artists or simple script programmers could find it not as easy as some other 3D solutions.

And lot of programmers remains programmers, they not always target a real game, some spend all time on tools and coding, and demos.

Making and selling a game is different, you plan your level design , gameplay , graphics, even with a simple character controller to begin and make some first playable level.

That approach is totally different, it do'nt suppose you code all your time , but it supposes you have a game in mind from beginning.

 

LE3 will remain for programmers like LE 2, access to the API with functions , C++ etc ...

But it brings new tools, a framework game , and new simple script framework to code games in a way you just code gameplay.

No more need to code a game framework and you'll be able to save and load the world and entities, lights etc ...

So i think if it will be really like that in the open way to 3D artists, yes you should see games selled with it, specially with Android

(PC publishing can be complicated, mobile is somewhat direct)

 

What matters is not games published, but what will we do with LE 3.

And keep in touch you could be suprised to see some indie PC game using LE 2.5 some day

[Pixel Perfect]

And lot of programmers remains programmers, they not always target a real game, some spend all time on tools and coding, and demos.

Making and selling a game is different, you plan your level design , gameplay , graphics, even with a simple character controller to begin and make some first playable level.

That approach is totally different, it do'nt suppose you code all your time , but it supposes you have a game in mind from beginning.

Do you have examples of games you have completed before I could look at?

[YouGroove]

I never made a complete game, only little demos or tests (are you happy ?)

Don't feel so offended.

It is that not all programmers will make a game and not all 3D artists will make a game also, perhaps i insisted too much on prgrammers, but it was to insist in the programmer orientation of LE 2.

 

Lot of indie programmers today make and sell games even alone :

only one popular example : MINECRAFT

Or visit IndieDB, Desura, Steam GrennLights to see what amazing stuff is done even by some lonewolf programmers

 

Even Rick has made the battle Chess game, and there is a cool demo game that could be completed like "The Last Chapters"

they could be selled on mobile with LE3 also.

[Rick]

Even Rick has made the battle Chess game

 

Far from a complete game like most others

 

Although I would say development on it would be much faster and easier if LE had built-in pathfinding, an animation editor of sorts to attach actions to animations, maybe some action editor, and UI editor. I plan on moving it to LE 3 when it's ready mostly because doing all that stuff is tedious and my time is limited due to other obligations. Not to mention I think the game would work better in a tablet/phone marketplace than PC.

[Pixel Perfect]

I never made a complete game, only little demos or tests (are you happy ?)

Don't feel so offended.

Neither happy nor offended. I was just trying to ascertain whether you were talking from experience or not Good to know we are all in the same boat

[Josh]

The fact of the matter is the indie game market has changed, and it would be foolish to release a game only on Windows nowadays.

[Rick]

So let's get this LE3 going. I have tax money coming that I'll just spend on something else unless you hurry up!

[Canardia]

@Josh: It has been always like that. It's just that there have been no good engines which were cross-platform. There were many cross-platform engines, but they were horrible. And the good engines were Windows only. Windows 7 will still live for 20 years, and by then there will be Windows 9 out which is the successor to XP and 7. Windows 8 follows the flop line of Vista.

[Quast]

So this mean NO GAMES yet !

oh god, all these years without any game, why ?, I thing if just the developer start a small game that will be great to show the power and the level of LW.

Yes there s Demos and some videos in YouTube but that is not enough, I want see what this engine present ? what can do more than other engines.

There's a selection of small games and demos made with Leadwerks in the Assets store. Otherwise, there have been other unpublished games which do not appear there and also one published game HOODWINK which uses some elements of the Leadwerks engine (mainly the renderer).

LE2 has never really reached that critical mass, in terms of users, to generate many games and it's still a releatively young engine too. Maybe LE3 will.

Great, I saw HOODWINK it was really good, but what i couldn't understand it, why since 2006 until now the stuff and developers have not created any game ? is this because the Engine still a relatively young or from you guys feeling that you can't made or show that touch of good games of this generation ?

 

The fact of the matter is the indie game market has changed, and it would be foolish to release a game only on Windows nowadays.

some games released only on windows and when it become famous the developers move it to other OS, In japan some games not release it in the west because developers from begin they knows for who this game is for, if the west people asked for it they transfer it to them after they got what they work for.

If you focus only in Windows you will succeed and there is no debt the Microsoft with open for you a way to Windows Mobile and Xbox Live.

The fact of the matter is the indie game market has changed

this change is good, better that old days

Description: Josh founded Leadwerks in 2006 in order to build game engines for high-end PC graphics. By 2010, he recognized that mobile graphics were approaching parity with traditional gaming platforms, and he began building a new cross-platform 3D engine capable of scaling to support mobile. Two years later, the author is here to share the lessons he learned and describe the challenges he encountered. Josh will discuss performance bottlenecks, recommended solutions, and a few pleasant surprises he discovered while working with mobile hardware. The challenges of implementing a cross-platform graphics workflow will be discussed, along with some innovations that streamline the development process.

Takeaway: Attendees will gain an understanding of the challenges of building scalable high-end graphics systems for mobile devices. Topics covered will include hardware performance, vendor support for the OpenGL ES 2.0 specification, and the challenges of developing a cross-platform workflow for mobile.

2006--(4years)--2010--(3years)--2013, I'm waiting for this

[Pixel Perfect]

I think you need to go back and read through this thread again if you are asking these questions! For one, LE2 has only been stable for the last two years or so and secondly it has a relatively small following compared to some of the bigger engines out there.

 

Have you made a game before, in which case how long did it take you and what engine did you use? There is no game engine as such with Leadwerks Engine 2, it's a game engine API, so you first need to write your game engine.

 

Either way, there are sufficient mini games to show what its capable of, I don't see why you would need them to be full games or even published to deduce the general flavour of what's possible and what's not with LE2.

[Furbolg]

@Quast: Why you need games to see whats possible ?

Make your own image of the engine by using the demo/engine.

 

I dont care how much games made with Leadwerks because it doesnt give me anything. I like the engine and the community, when i got a question, i always get friendly and reasonable answers. What you want more ?