LE3 Pricing Strategy

[gordonramp]

Here is a serious suggested pricing strategy for Leadwerks 3.

 

Unity3D have set the benchmark for Indie, semi professional and even professional Game Engines. They are very popular. Their Forums are teaming with people and from what I can gather their cash registers are ringing loudly.

LE3 is basically entering the market place and so needs to come up with something that will outmanoeuvre the opposition. This (Josh) is my suggestion.

 

I've been camped out at Unity for some time making prototypes so I know a little of the feeling there.

The Achilles heal of Unity Free is Real Time shadows. People are always complaining about a lack of them in the free version. Of course they were left out on purpose so Users would get frustrated and buy the Pro version.

 

If LE3 was to have Real Time Shadows in it's Basic Version and the price was around $500 ($250 for LE2 owners) then I'm confident that many Unity Free Users would buy LE3 because the Pro version of Unity is $1500.

 

The Basic Version also needs Terrains, water etc but just shadows would get you sales in my opinion.

 

That's it.

[YouGroove]

You can't compare a lot , Unity is a big team that is working on the engine, making promotionnals and adverts, support, and other stuff.

And Unity is trying to push further each time with different technlologies like the last motion one, so LE 3 is one person and you can't compete and make same 3D tools or advanced features, it will be to people using LE 3 to program and bring some new plugins, or new systems , so it means LE 3 should perhaps be open to other people with a free version no ?

[gordonramp]

Of course you can compare, they are both 3D Engines. Yes, a free version could work too but quality Real Time Shadows are the key.

[Canardia]

The only thing I miss in LE3 in the first release are real time shadows and Linux version. I need real time shadows to make the game look good, and Linux version to make the server side work.

[YouGroove]

Even Unity Free have a shadow plugin that is free (it was some bugs sometiems , it uses some tricks, i don't know if it works on static meshes only, but you have real time shadows)

 

Im' not sure abotu shadows, even blob shadosw , and baked lighmapping will do the job.

Specially on mobile, where such intensive stuff as shadows, mut only be used really cleverly, and on action games you won't really watch if it's a Blob system or real shadow.

Like space games taht can avoid shadows, or casualn arcade, 2.5D games etc ...

Even some linear race track for some pure arcade race game could use alpha transparent polygon to make the shadow

 

So im' not sure about that ? but perhaps you are right ?

[achrystie]

Well, it's hard to say how many LW 2 license have been sold since it was created, but if we estimate thousands, based on forum members, Josh probably figures he only needs to push a few hundred at the new price point to make the same total, if he sells more, that's just money to add people with or take in profit.

 

5000 license at $200 each is equivalent to 333 licenses at $3000 each.

So really it just comes down to finding 333 small indie teams, or individuals/hobbyists with more money than sense, to buy it, which is probably conceivable. I just know I won't be one of them.

 

What's interesting is the $999 price for Windows/Mac only. There are literally TONS of other engines, both free and much cheaper, with similar or even better features, many of which are quite easy to use, that can generate an executable for Win/Mac, and even Linux in some cases.

Hell you can get better lighting and shading, physics, logic bricks, scripting, C++ capability, and a FULL set of 3d content tools in Blender, for free, and output a pretty decent looking game from Blender using default game engine, as well as OgreKit, to produce the final executable. In fact you can even get the Ogrekit plugin to run on iOS.

Not to mention the free Torque 3d license, Shiva, Unity Free, C4, etc.

The Win/Mac of LW3 is literally NOT competitive IMHO, no matter how nice the API or Flowgraph are, and no CSG modeling or pipeline tools will ever equate to a full 3D modeling/bone/animation system built right into the tool.

 

However, as I said, my opinion doesn't matter, particularly if there are a few hundred people out there willing to pay this amount, for whatever reason. Given how many people there are out there making games, it wouldn't surprise me if Josh can drudge up a few hundred customers, and that's probably enough.

[adshead]

I was looking forward to LE3 but at that price its simply not something I (or probably most people) can consider - particularly something with no track record. Its irrelevant how few people built LE3 or how long it took, the simple fact is that people *will* compare its price and features to other engines.

 

At those prices one can only assume that Josh is trying to compete Unity Pro - but that product has a *proven* track record. LE3 has no track record (neither does LE2 for that matter) and so I think he should have followed the same strategy as Unity - i.e release a free version with some missing features and then include those things in the pro version.

 

As it stands LE3 has a pro price with a limited feature set (any 3d engine today must have terrain) and as such he has priced himself out of the market in my opinion.

[gordonramp]

@achrystie,

It's possible but I think it most likely that Josh has completely misjudged the market. After putting so much energy into getting the LE3 to it's current stage his desire for payback has distorted things. Basically, he has got it wrong.

 

@adshead,

I agree.

[gordonramp]

There are ways around the realtime shadows thing in Unity, actually there are ways around almost all the missing things in Unity free... asset store has a few of them already... custom shaders, scripts, among other things..

Lua support can be added too...

 

Yes, I've seen a few of them. Certainly the Lua support looks useful.

The addon I saw for shadows was for Blobs or pre designed shapes. Not sure if it's serious real time shadows.

Some of the space assets there look quite amazing.

[gordonramp]

Looks good to me.

[Xaron]

I totally appreciate the hard work Josh did here with Leadwerks 3. I wish you success but I can hardly see it when you compete with Unity. Even ShiVa had to go the route with lower pricing and I'm not sure how well they do...

[EdzUp(GD)]

Personally to me I would do pricing like this:

 

There would be a free version (with LE logo on startup) for non-commercial entities

 

A per game price where it was $199 for use on one game, $299 for two, $399 for three etc.

 

Upgrade from previous version would be $299 from LE2.x to aid transition to the new systems.

 

Finally the $999 per product for serious developers

 

This would make it more attractive to developers rather than just a flat $999 per package.

[ESP]

Come Thursday I will be getting the upgrade. I have to admit that I am a bit worried about all the stuff that seems to have gone from 2.x, but I do need Mac and a better editor.

 

I never thought for one moment that IOS and Android/Linux would be added costs, but I did expect a £3-500 upgrade fee. I may still get the Android upgrade although most of my current potential customers are using iPads/iPhones...

 

Having come this far with LE, a move to a different platform just is not on the cards. All the missing parts of LE3 must be supplied at no extra cost to justify the $$$$

 

Robin

[MCP]

There's always the annual paid subscription model Josh could implement. That way you could use the software today, get upgrades as they become available for lifetime of your subscription, and Josh gets an annual income for the lifetime of the product.

What's people's thoughts on this?

[Flexman]

I used to pay regular maintenance fees for BLIDE, I had no problem with that. When your time tuns out, pay a small fee to continue to download updates. It was more continuity insurance.

[cassius]

I hate the idea.

[Admin]

That isn't designed to make money, it's designed to destroy the market for indie game engines. Walmart does the same thing..

[Guest Red Ocktober]

i don't think that any pricing strategy is valid at this point... you don't have a clearly defined product...

 

this is not Leadwerks 3... none of the good stuff that was in Leadwerks 2 is part of 3... none of the defining stuff that was Leadwerks... no deferred renderer... no advanced graphics... no shadows... no terrains...

 

it's not an evolution of Leadwerks 2... it's a lateral product, a different product than 2.5, aimed at a different segment... as such, the version number 3 is gonna cause all sorts of issues with licensing costs and expectations...

 

 

pull back the Win and Mac versions, release only the mobile versions now... and redefine the price point...

 

 

call it something like Leadwerks Mobile...(it's main goal was cross platform, right... and the mobile platforms seemed to be the "hook" here... so why not just call it what it is)...

 

so, right now you'd have Leadwerks 3 and Leadwerks Mobile (droid/iOs)...

 

 

then, when a decent feature set (comparable to L2) is ready... release Leadwerks Universal (Win & Mac combined, or Leadwerks Windows and Leadwerks Mac versions separately)... then you'd have Leadwerks Win/Mac/Mobile... (it'll be up to you to fine tune the pricing structure... indie, commercial, or pro... if you wanna go that far)

 

 

 

in my opinion, right now, with the current marketing and pricing, you're gonna loose everything...

 

there is just no compelling reason to even consider the current release at the price point you are currently suggesting...

 

the lua debugger and enhanced editor, while impressive, are just not enough to justify the current cost of a mobile license... people are gonna go to the more established houses at this pricing level... or seek an alternative solution at a much lower price point...

 

 

 

--Mike