Josh Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Hey, I just got back from SF. It was pretty interesting because last time I was at the GDC, everything I had was based on Blitz. At the time, I just saw the problem as "Blitz doesn't compile for XBox" but of course it's more complex than that. Now that we have our C++ code base it's going to be pretty exciting to see what happens there. Obviously I need to rethink our upgrade pricing. The reason I am doing a soft launch within the community is because it lets gives us a chance to work out any issues before going public. I was thinking more about technical stuff, but I guess this falls under the same umbrella. It was difficult to judge what to set it at, because I think the new engine is really good, and I want to scale things up as quickly as possible. I think we can all agree Leadwerks needs to grow to be able to do the things we want. However, the transition to a more serious engine needs to be smooth enough so that everyone who wants to upgrade can. A lot of people just do this as a hobby, which is fine. I think we can figure out a way that no one gets left out. The original upgrade window I gave was influenced by the date of the GDC, which is a month early this year for some reason. It's the big industry event, so I want to have the public launch then. Of course I planned on having the engine done well before that, but I found the front-end (user interface) stuff to take a lot more time than just making a back-end that works (engine API). So we can extend that. Let's get a demo out for Windows, and then you guys can play with it yourselves and see what the new engine is like. Until then it's all just speculation based on my verbal description. Chris was supposed to finish up a few small things while I was gone, so I will check on that when I get into work. We should be able to put the demo out tomorrow morning, and we'll just hold off on the purchases for now. The discussions here have been pretty reasonable for the most part, and I've talked to a number of you and have a pretty good idea of what people think is a fair range. I'm not going to make a spur-of-the-moment decision, but I'll look at what I want our final price to be for the public, what our immediate expenses are, and what people think is reasonable. Regarding future development, I think it's too soon to start planning version 3.1 until people start using the new engine and I see how they handle it. I will however commit to adding terrain to version 3.0 following release. I don't have an estimate on when that will be, and stability and compatibility take precedence over new features, but it won't cost anything extra. The request I hear on terrain more than anything else is to increase the 4 texture limit. There are technical reasons for that constraint, but there are a few ways around it and I'll just have to play around with it and see what works best. The reason that never happened in Leadwerks 2 is because it requires a lot more code to make optimal; you can't just throw 16 textures at the pixel shader and get the same performance. Don't worry too much about this week, we've been through worse. 10 Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaron Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Great Josh! Nice to see you back. And thanks for your words! Quote Triassic Games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixel Perfect Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Reassuring words Josh, I believe that should calm the community somewhat. 2 Quote Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassius Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Thanks Josh. So its c++ or lua and nothing else? Is that correct? Quote amd quad core 4 ghz / geforce 660 ti 2gb / win 10 Blender,gimp,silo2,ac3d,,audacity,Hexagon / using c++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamecreator Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Much appreciated. The only other thing I can add is that much of the community felt that LE3 should at least have matching graphics capabilities to LE2 (lighting and shadows). While that might take some time to roll out, I would highly suggest considering that it be part of either the 3.0 or 3.1 release as part of the engine (no extra cost). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted February 27, 2013 Author Share Posted February 27, 2013 Much appreciated. The only other thing I can add is that much of the community felt that LE3 should at least have matching graphics capabilities to LE2 (lighting and shadows). While that might take some time to roll out, I would highly suggest considering that it be part of either the 3.0 or 3.1 release as part of the engine (no extra cost). That cannot be done at the price you would like. It's another big block of research and development, and I just finished a two year cycle. So its c++ or lua and nothing else? Is that correct? That's what I can officially support and document right now. I will post my BlitzMax binding code, but it's not compliant with the API and docs. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wh1sp3r Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I would like to react on admin's reply on offtopic: wh1sp3r, on 27 February 2013 - 04:58 PM, said: now, the question is will be a GL4 renderer added without any fee ? Admin's answer: No. That's completely infeasible. Implementation will be a huge amount of research and development. So it means .. we have to pay additional money for that. Ok, That i wanted to know. Thank you. Quote -= Phenom II X4 965 3.4Ghz - ATI HD5870 - 6 GB DDR3 RAM - Windows 8 Pro 64x=- Website: http://www.flamewarestudios.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted February 27, 2013 Author Share Posted February 27, 2013 Yeah, that's what I meant. Our business model is paid upgrades every 9-15 months or so. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESP Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 So does that mean 9-15 months to get LE3 to have the capabilities of LE2? 1 Quote Programmer , Intel Quad core, NVIDIA GeForce GT 220, Windows 7 Pro, Galaxy Tab 2 ( 7" and 10"), LE2,LE3,3DWS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixel Perfect Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Exactly, that's my question too. As much as I'd like some of the pipeline and editor benefits we are realistically saying to get to the same graphics level as LE2 on Windows will take two chargeable upgrades and a minimum of 9 -15 months wait? Quote Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamecreator Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 That cannot be done at the price you would like. It's another big block of research and development, and I just finished a two year cycle. I could have sworn you said somewhere (must have been on the blog) that graphics is the easy part of this and that you already know how to do it well. It seems I misremember or maybe you were just talking about the PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L B Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 So does that mean 9-15 months to get LE3 to have the capabilities of LE2? ^this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wh1sp3r Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 that's what i really don't like .... we have no idea, when we have to pay and for what and how much. Small update, and pay !! or no support. it reminds me small upgrade from 2.2 to 2.3 or how's the version. We really don't know when they can suprises us with price. I really hate these marketing models where you have to pay for bugfixes. Quote -= Phenom II X4 965 3.4Ghz - ATI HD5870 - 6 GB DDR3 RAM - Windows 8 Pro 64x=- Website: http://www.flamewarestudios.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassius Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Well we have never paid for bug fixes yet. Josh says the addition of terrain will be free. Quote amd quad core 4 ghz / geforce 660 ti 2gb / win 10 Blender,gimp,silo2,ac3d,,audacity,Hexagon / using c++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Just a suggestion on pricing Josh: Existing Users: $199 upgrade -- $499 iOS/Android --- $199 future updates (one year to upgrade) New Users --- : $499 purchase - $499 iOS/Android --- $199 future updates As LE3 has close to the number of features as Unity, scale the price up. I really don't think you are going to have very many takers at your current price. In fact, based on what I've seen over the past couple of days, you will lose a lot of customers. You won't have a community much longer as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furbolg Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Guys we should wait till Josh get the 3.0 version ready for launch. As you can see here, it is possible to talk with Josh (if its civil and not flaming). We got Josh to think about the price, so chances we are getting Leadwerks 3D cheaper are given. Josh officially promised to add free terrain (in the meantime anyone could use Meshterrain and Splattershader, this community will share this really fast i guess). Im also not happy with the actual situation (Unity: free, UDK Source Licensee (for hobby/indie) 99$ etc... you know the competetors) but i think we have to give Josh a chance to react. Later on we can still left but i hope we dont reach this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wchris Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 And allow downloadable versions please. I don't want a boxed version. Customs will want me to pay vat on oversee shipped boxed versions. + custom fees. I don't have to pay vat on downloaded versions, because they don't known I exists at all. Thanks Edit: I'm serious, I will NOT buy a boxed version. [joke] Edit: another solution is to slice the boxed version into packets of value < 45€. And send me plenty of little packets because our crazy lawmaker doesn't require vat when the price is < 45€. But I guess you don't want to ? LOL [/joke] Quote Windows 7 home - 32 bits Intel Quad Q6600 - nVidia GTX 460 1GB - 2 GB RAM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixel Perfect Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I just think its important that people know exactly what they are getting into right from the start so they can make the initial purchase without any misconceptions This requires as a bare minimum: Revised initial purchase costs A definite roadmap of development with time scales A reasonable indication of the expected cost of each of these upgrades There is no immediate requirement but it should be made available before asking people to purchase the engine. If you are asking people to make a not insubstantial investment both financially and time wise then this is essential so people can plan their finances and development. The release of a trial/demo version for people to try is a good initial move and I welcome that. 2 Quote Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdzUp(GD) Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I think another major thing people will want to know is what are the limitations of the base LE3 engine, LE2.5 can do LOADS of different things apart from the cross platform or low end hardware side. If LE3 cannot do half of LE2.5 then this will be seen as a half release or at worst beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonramp Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I just think its important that people know exactly what they are getting into right from the start so they can make the initial purchase without any misconceptions This requires as a bare minimum: Revised initial purchase costs A definite roadmap of development with time scales A reasonable indication of the expected cost of each of these upgrades There is no immediate requirement but it should be made available before asking people to purchase the engine. If you are asking people to make a not insubstantial investment both financially and time wise then this is essential so people can plan their finances and development. The release of a trial/demo version for people to try is a good initial move and I welcome that. I agree with this completely. Also, Josh has indicated that development of lights and shadows would be too time consuming for 3.0 This is a mistake in my opinion. Even if 3.0 is delayed for some time, they need to be there for the Engine to be taken seriously. Quote AMD Athlon x2 7750 2.7ghz, 6gb ddr2 ram, Galaxy9800GT 1gig ddr2 video card, Windows 7,64. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouGroove Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Well let's wait for some next big annoucement that will clarify all that questions Quote Stop toying and make games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkii Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Thank you Josh for your understanding and hard work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtreampb Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 So i have a concern about the paying for updates. What if i don't want what was released in lets say 3.2 but i want what is included in 3.3 Will i have to buy both 3.2 and 3.3 or would i be able to just buy 3.3 upgrade. I think people would be more welcome and accepting to that since you have decided to charge for the addition of features. Quote bool Life() { while(death=false) { if(death==true) return death; } } I have found the secret to infinite life Did I help you out? Like my post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus729 Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 So i have a concern about the paying for updates. What if i don't want what was released in lets say 3.2 but i want what is included in 3.3 Will i have to buy both 3.2 and 3.3 or would i be able to just buy 3.3 upgrade. I think people would be more welcome and accepting to that since you have decided to charge for the addition of features. Much as I would welcome this it makes no sense what so ever. 3.3 is built on the 3.2 code base so there is most likely no way to give you 3.3 without 3.2 included. Thus those that pay for each . upgrade would get ripped off if others can skip one or more intermediate upgrades and still get the same end result. Quote Mobo G1.ASSASSIN2- GTX 580 4GB - 16 GB RAM - i7 3930 3.2 Giggles - Win 7 PRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 I think he's asking if he can skip every other update. That's obviously not my preference, but if people actually end up doing that it indicates we aren't making a very compelling upgrade, if they're willing to wait a year to get it. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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