Ultra Engine noob feedback thread

[Leag]

3 minutes ago, Josh said:

1. No. Steam Direct allows anyone to publish on Steam, and this is a better path for developers.

2. Yes!

3. I don't plan on integrating Steam Workshop for a few reasons.

• Ultra is offered both on Steam and as a standalone, whereas Leadwerks was Steam exclusive.
• Steam Workshop has never worked very well for me, and has always been slow-loading.
• I'm trying to focus on making the import pipeline the best it can be. Instead of trying to build up a repository of 3D models, I would rather just make it easy to import models from an existing site like Sketchfab. Maybe a Sketchfab browser will be integrated in the future.

4. Plugins and editor extensions are supported now.

 

Thanks for the info! Good to hear about C# support. The decision on Steam Workshop makes sense. Great to know about the existing plugin support.

[Josh]

I have not sent out an email or posted anything anywhere else about the release yet, I think I want to demonstrate more component functionality first, with an emphasis on player movement. Using this for the player model, I want to demonstrate four movement components:
https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/biped-robot-801d2a245e4a4405a0c2152b35b5e486

• First-person player (no visible model)
• Free-flight camera with collision (no visible model)
• Basic third-person player
• Random navmesh movement, just picks a random point and walks to it, just to show basic navmesh functionality.

I'd rather not add weapons yet because I am not sure how the components should be broken up, and I want a lot of user feedback on how it should be designed. The existing components are designed to be simple and understandable. With Leadwerks, I was sort of showing off and making a game, but it made the player and AI scripts excessively complex and hard to modify. Once everyone understands how those components work, we can discuss how the weapons system should be set up. We want weapons that work with first-person, third-person, and enemy/NPC components. I don't know yet how that should work and I want your input.

[reepblue]

I've been watching a few tutorials from other engine and the trend is that people like to visually construct things. 

Right now, to make a first-person player one would.

1. Create a Pivot in the scene.
2. Attach the FPSController component. 

Now, this is all well and good, but things can be complicated for the non-programmer type. I'm experimenting with an approach that the user "builds" their player out of multiple components.

1. Place a Pivot or Model for the player.
2. Create a camera and parent it to the player entity having the end user set the height of the camera in the editor.
3. Attach a FPSController component that ONLY handles controller movement and gets the camera reference via GetChild().
4. End user can attach multiple components to the camera such as custom look controls, HUD, etc.
5. User would ideally save this as a prefab, but this isn't in the current build of the editor yet. 

I've already created two components with this approach, and I can already tell you it's so much easier to segregate functionality. 

[Josh]

I've been thinking about this and I think the solution is to do both.

I can't imagine forcing people to "build" a character controller out of parts in every single map they create. Just being able to drag a single component to make it work is a hundred times faster.

On the other hand, if you can construct a prefab out of parts and customize the behavior a bit, that gives the non-programmer a bit more to dig into. For any programmer that is a horribly tedious way of doing things, but you should have an assumption that some users cannot write code and never will.

[Alienhead]

A game engine or a game maker?  L:)

 

[Josh]

 

2 minutes ago, Alienhead said:

A game engine or a game maker?  L:)

Layers

[Josh]

I think we should be looking at a December 1 release on Steam, with as much component / game stuff packed in as possible before then. It's clear that is what the immediate value is for the majority of users.

[WazMeister]

4 hours ago, Alienhead said:

A game engine or a game maker?  L:)

 

Personally, I think it has to be a bit of both this day and age, just my opinion. 

One particular way of editing 3D models, as an example with Blitz3D or Gameguru Max,  would be editing the engine or pre-existing Hand and animations in 3D software (e.g fragMotion) and import any gun and link the bones easily….this can be done for multitude of weapons and melee as long as the arms are there with the natural animation. It’s a process within GGMax.. Took time but the default pallet was there and people just to edit without having to be 3D Modellers or Artists.. great little feature.

Basic templates that are out the box ready, with scripts as required (preferably with lots of comments for beginners) to get individuals started by focusing on making games. They will then learn to use it as a Game Engine and expand their knowledge and skillset. While more experienced or advanced users could just jump straight in with customising, tweaking and using it as an engine off the bat and potentially show others how to further close the gap and do other things with it other than being a ‘game maker’.

Templates as stated previously, FPS with default hand and gun.... Maybe have the system with a set of default hands and a gun that allows users to open in fragmotion, add custom gun or melee weapons and link bones...  Then everyone has content for all sorts of weapons.  Similar to Gameguru Max and what I did with Blitz3D finding a 3d animated model and without modelling skills, edit the weapon as the hands were always same for set type of weapons etc. 

Perhaps have a template for 3rd person, with a system that easily shows users how to implement fixing guns to the model or general items.. I learnt this in Leadwerks but took far too long than it should had and felt unintuitive with massive learning curve. I finally got a Mixamo Gun Aiming animation on to a model, imported said model and animations then scripted a gun model to be holstered and un-holstered....  But for a simple thing it was just crazy... Maybe implement easier methods for these basic things.. Or a specific ‘how to make a game’ guide or tutorials. Unfortunately an engine will get far more customer base and attention on the ease of use and the entry level. To see outcomes and results far quicker than spending months learning the engine to then see a model move across the screen and shoot or pick a item up….. Content alone can make or break a product, it’s an age of YouTube videos and instant gratification world….. wanting to be told exactly how to get from a to z and then take that and add their own twist or content to it to make their own game and much more.

UE4 is massively poplar for many reasons, but I honestly believe the main one is because of the sheer amount of learning and how to content or tutorials available... People can literally make a best seller game from nothing by watching or reading the stuff..... with no programming experience at all!!

Anyway I dribble on, Sorry.   Templates to get individuals making a game....would be a positive move.. a lot of people get their thrills from learning, breaking and making the engine and pushing it to its max capabilities... But on the other hand there are large numbers that just want to jump in and start making a game.... With some hand holding... albeit at the same time have some form of progress path to gradually improve and take deeper steps on their path to creating their dream game.  You would be amazed at the content people new or old would come up with, with a foundation of starting point and direction……

P. S.... Chuck in an FPS with body / feet showing, RTS and top-down view RPG and Shooter templates 😉

 

 

P. S sorry for all the spelling, on phone which my fat thumbs don't like/

 

 

[WazMeister]

Just one more,  I don't currently use LeadWerks for various reasons but I did feel the potential and love in it.. I actually miss it!  I've jumped on ClickTeam Fusion 2.5 for awhile to play around with and have some fun. Reason I hang around here as I genuinely do have a passion for Ultra (and Leadwerks) that it will get the support and basics for new comers built to a T and I'll jump right back in and buy Ultra. There is definitely a fantastic community and vibe here,  would love to see it grow with all different kind of creators.

Oh and @AlienHead much love..  the content you shared and advice gave me massive inspiration and was really amazing. I'll never forget that.

[Josh]

 

It's important to know what you are good at and compete along those lines. Providing a lot of game-ready models and videos is not what I am good at. Anything I can create would just be a tiny drop in the bucket of what people demand. It's better to focus on your strengths, which in our case is performance. That's the carrot Ultra has to offer that Leadwerks lacked.

As far as game content goes, focusing on the import pipeline has been a lot more beneficial than trying to create a big repository of content. Klepto's HDRI tool completely solves the sky / environment map problem and unlocks infinite content of that type. glTF support has a similar beneficial effect. I am restraining myself from putting up models packs for Ultra because any time I could spend on that would be better spent writing a built-in SketchFab browser for the editor.

Similarly, I think our editor extensions will in time be very valuable, but that requires a bigger community before you will start to see the benefits.

Other engines are basically selling themselves based on the amount of third-party content they have. That can't be our core value proposition, because it's not possible. The reason people will use Ultra is its performance, and the third-party content will come after that.

These steps must occur:

1. Acquire users based on performance advantage.
2. Provide a framework for third-party content to be created (extensions, plugins, components, flowgraph). This is mostly done, but could use some more standard components to demonstrate features.
3. Community builds up third-party content and then you can start promoting that as an advantage.

The first step absolutely must happen, or the other two are impossible. It may mean we need to focus harder on VR developers, since they are always having problems with optimization and Ultra can make a big difference in their life.

 

[WazMeister]

Agreed. 3rd Party content is easily accessible via online searches.  Sorry if my post came across as that for a primary requirement. It was more of content for educational, literature etc for using and doing that would be beneficial.

 

[Leag]

Hey @Josh, i forgot to ask, when can we expect C# support to be added ?

[Josh]

5 minutes ago, Leag said:

Hey @Josh, i forgot to ask, when can we expect C# support to be added ?

Once early access is over I think C# support is the logical thing to do. Could be as soon as January.

[Leag]

4 minutes ago, Josh said:

Once early access is over I think C# support is the logical thing to do. Could be as soon as January.

is it going to be included in the standard version or the pro version ?

[Josh]

13 minutes ago, Leag said:

is it going to be included in the standard version or the pro version ?

I will probably include it in the pro version, and then have a C#-only .NET version as well. More products in the Steam store = more money.

[DooMAGE]

What would be the advantages of C# over C++ and Lua?

[IceBurger]

36 minutes ago, DoomSlayer said:

What would the advantages of C# over C++ and Lua?

If you are most familiar with C#, it would be beneficial to be able to use it. It is unfortunate, but most people don't like learning new things. They like using what they know works and see no reason to try something else. Or they just prefer C#. Either way, supporting it opens up the gate to more prospective costumers (like those familiar with Unity or another C# engine).

[Dreikblack]

7 hours ago, Josh said:

I can't imagine forcing people to "build" a character controller out of parts in every single map they create. Just being able to drag a single component to make it work is a hundred times faster.

Or it could be a prefab in template. Btw any eta on prefabs?

[Josh]

On 11/1/2023 at 6:07 PM, DoomSlayer said:

What would be the advantages of C# over C++ and Lua?

Lua is dynamically typed, which can be very convenient in small projects when you want to quickly experiment with things, and can also be problematic in bigger projects when you forget what variable names you used. C# is strongly typed, which gives it better autocompletion support, something that isn't really possible to get perfect in Lua.

Coming from a BASIC background, I always saw C# as ugly C syntax combined with a lack of functionality. A language like BlitzMax or PureBasic (or even VB) always seemed much nicer to me. However, it does give you much of the functionality of C++, with fast compile times, and good support for autocompletion in Visual Studio, so I can understand why it would be good for games. For most game developers, it's about the same functionality as C++ with faster compile times and no need for header files.

I think C# was Microsoft's reaction to the growing popularity of Java at the time, which kind of explains some of the decisions. I find it strange that a now-dead fad is what killed BASIC, kind of like how the iPhone sent Windows into a decade-long descent into madness before they finally killed off all the cell phone interfaces in Windows 11.

[Josh]

16 hours ago, Dreikblack said:

Or it could be a prefab in template. Btw any eta on prefabs?

I do not have an answer to this right now.

[Alienhead]

5 hours ago, Josh said:

Lua is dynamically typed

Lua 5.4 introduced CONSTANTS at least. phew.. they getting closer to STRICT :>)

 

[Leag]

is Ultra Engine going to support Mac os, or will it be Windows only ?

[Josh]

31 minutes ago, Leag said:

is Ultra Engine going to support Mac os, or will it be Windows only ?

It will support Mac. I have run earlier builds on Mac. I don't have a release date for that in mind right now, because it does not make sense to do multiple platforms when the updates are coming so frequently.

[Leag]

10 minutes ago, Josh said:

It will support Mac. I have run earlier builds on Mac. I don't have a release date for that in mind right now, because it does not make sense to do multiple platforms when the updates are coming so frequently.

It's good to hear that Mac support is in consideration.

so im guessing it will support Apple Silicon ?

[Josh]

4 minutes ago, Leag said:

It's good to hear that Mac support is in consideration.

so im guessing it will support Apple Silicon ?

Actually, yeah, I did builds for both x86 and Apple Silicon Macs. I will probably only support Apple Silicon in the future though. It always pays off to just use the latest thing, because it just gets more and more common with time.