Complete game tutorials

[YouGroove]

I know there is some LE3 in going stuff like new V3.1, bugs correction, Steam integration etc ...

I was just wandering , will it be another some complete game tutorials ?

Like "darkness" demo ?

Explained step by setp ?

[Road Kill Kenny]

My prediction is that this will never happen. At least not in the way you want it.

 

Reason being... There are freaking books and books and books about the different aspects of making games... To go step by step, to the degree that you seem to be asking, for a half decent game would be a monster... A monster that I so much doubt a Game Engine Developer has time to tackle even with help... I'm not sure anyone who has the skill for this has the time... since most people are making their own games.

 

Ain't nobody got time for that unless they are indeed writing a book. Anyone who says they can actually do this and have time for it are either sweet talking you.... or is ignorant about the matter (or is actually writing a book )

 

And one final note:

[Pixel Perfect]

There is an alternative ... put the money upfront and go to the Jobs Board and advertise for someone with the capability to make the game for you!

[cassius]

What kind of game would it be anyway. I think some of the tutorials could have been taken a little further and included a single enemy character with some gunplay involved but I never really expected it to happen.

With le2 I wanted to write a first person shooter but there was no gun firing example and I couldn;t wait for ever so I did a medieval adventure game.

[Rick]

@cassius You technically don't need a gun firing example in LE to do a first person shooter. You need to know what the engine offers and figure out how to fire a gun on your own. Or post in the forums asking for help. Or google how to fire a gun. It's a generic enough idea that there are many articles, forum posts, etc on the internet to get you started in a generic way that you then translate into how your engine does things.

[cassius]

Yeah. You are right rick. I didn;t make enough effort, however my adventure game proved to be very satisfying and impressed my friends who saw it.( but still unfinished)

[Josh]

Basically, we don't see any correlation between this and sales, and no matter what we do, it's never enough. People seem to prefer when I focus on the foundation they're building on.

[steeleb]

Kind of on topic, and I don't think this necessarily would fall on Leadwerks, but is there good reference material, for commonly used patterns for creating certain features that games generally have? For example, efficient ways to schedule and manage NPC's paths, weather it be a random walk, or a patrol. That was just an example, a pretty complex one, but many games have done this, and I find myself doing activities like this all the time, and I think to myself, I'm reinventing the wheel, and I am sure it's been done better than the way I am currently implementing it. Don't know if algorithms or game design patterns are proprietary, but I have been unable to find good resources on things like that.

[AggrorJorn]

It has been said already but 'making' an entire tutorial is just a massive undertaking and a too broad spectrum. Like Josh is saying no matter what tutorial would be provided: you will always want to have something else in your game. If there was a tutorial on shooting your weapon, the next request is how do I programm upgrades, or how is a sniper scope created, how can I make bloodstains on the floor, floor can I make ragdolls etc. What it boils down to is that you either need a tool or piece of software that does things for you. Besides that, if you want specific gameplay then you have to program it yourself, pay someone to do it or team up with a programmer.

 

@Steeleb: Lets take the example of npc paths. There is not really an algorithm for such behavior. It really depends on how you want to manage your NPC's and what kind of functionality you want your NPC's to have. Leadwerks already provides pathfinding which is already one of the most difficult tasks. After that is implementing parts of code that you want. However this not really a design pattern but just implementing code logic.

 

If I where to make an NPC with waypoints

• Create NPC class
  
• Give it a movement state:
  
  • Idle
    
  • Walking
    

  [*]Give it a behavior (state)

  • Patrolling
    
  • Firing
    
  • Seeking
    
  • Fleeing
    

  [*]Based upon how much life, ammo or team mates left you can change its state.

  [*]If nothing is going on return to patrolling state

  • Seek the last know waypoint and walk to it.
    

  [*]Make sure that the NPC has a Path object attached

  • The path object knows all the waypoints.
    

  [*]If patrolling and waypoint is reached, set current waypoint to next waypoint.

 

It is a start where you can think about but it is really game specific and game design specific. Everyone wants to have it own implementation and there just is no perfect way of doing this.

[steeleb]

@Aggror

 

I agree Aggror, at that level, it's very much up to the developer to decide how they want to implement something. However, I am talking a bit more at a lower level.

 

For intance, take the use case, of NPC, which can move on to patrols, and are capable of being engaged in conversations via a right click menu from my NPC. Writing my NPC class, that does everything I want to do, is totally specific to my games. However, NPC's state management, and NPC conversation interfaces, is probably something that follows some kind of object pattern that might be considered industry standard. I don't know if it is... But if it is, and it's referenced somewhere, I would love to know if such references exist.

 

This is why I said it's sort of on topic, but not really. Not really looking for a tutorial, but more for design patterns for handling "algorithmic task" that aren't in engine design. Things like AI, gui event handling, game maps, quest scripting. Each game probably does things a bit difference, but I imagine there are some higher level design patterns, which say that NPC state management is very similar to this object pattern, and you can use that to manage your NPC schedules.

 

Like I said, I don't think it's pertinent, for leadwerks to make these tutorials, I was just wondering if there was a good reference for common game algorithm/activities that are a bit higher level than engine specific things like pathfinding, in which are there are some good design patterns for handling. I have seen some good stuff, for instance GUI code, event code, and AI code, but I was just kind of wondering if it existing more at the design level, rather than actual implemented code.

[AggrorJorn]

I am not sure there is. I asked these questions myself when I started out with programming but there aren't fixed algorithms for such things. There are software design patterns that you can implement to improve complex handling of code:

http://www.dofactory...s/Patterns.aspx

[karmacomposer]

I'm going to put my 2 cents in here. I really don't need tutorials, per se, on how to create a game. What I would like to see is LE 3 TEMPLATES for specific game types. For example, an FPS script template, 3rd person shooter template, 2D side scroller template, RPG template, MMORPG template, AI template for bad guys, etc, etc, etc.

 

I would rather have something like that to build off of so that I could build my graphics, characters and levels and then drop in some scripts and customize the hell out of them (in Lua). There are a zillion engines that have done this - but Leadwerks is a BETTER ENGINE, graphically, and more fun to play with thanks to the built in editor.

 

I also know there were some of these for LE 2.5, but they don't work with v3.

 

That's what I would like to see. Let me also add that I would be more than willing to PAY for these scripts.

 

Mike

[josk]

I come from the Blitz user base and what I have always liked is being able to buy a Template/framework.

 

It can make things easier to learn, Sprite Candy, Grey alien framework and Ignition Framework all gave me good ideas and a better understanding of how things work. It would be great if there was some templates and maybe with LE3 hopefully getting on Steam it might pay to make some. Whether its in house or by a budding Grey Alien.

 

Not sure if I would want them, I'm happy just tapping code in and hoping it works. then again I probably would buy a Template just to support Leadwerks.

 

I w

If I where to make an NPC with waypoints

• Create NPC class
  
• Give it a movement state:
  
  • Idle
    
  • Walking
    

  [*]Give it a behavior (state)

  • Patrolling
    
  • Firing
    
  • Seeking
    
  • Fleeing
    

  [*]Based upon how much life, ammo or team mates left you can change its state.

  [*]If nothing is going on return to patrolling state

  • Seek the last know waypoint and walk to it.
    

  [*]Make sure that the NPC has a Path object attached

  • The path object knows all the waypoints.
    

  [*]If patrolling and waypoint is reached, set current waypoint to next waypoint.

 

i was going to reply to this but you said it much clearer and better.

[cassius]

I think yougroove wants a game he can modify.

We all do a bit of that but it can only get you so far. You have to learn coding in the end.

[YouGroove]

Perhaps it's better to have independant scripts at final.

Like :

- FPS basic move and basic shoot

- Bullet effects

- basic static NPC detect in range / fire

- basic static NPC detect / follow and attack (already in darkness )

- basic map

- basic menu

- basic save points (read/write to file)

 

Yes, independant Lua scripts.

 

Some example of indie game :

 

This is some example of good indie game using some FPS templates of UDK.

The guy had just to re use them , modify them and add is own custom code and stuff, but he could started with basic UDK templates and make playable levels already.

 

in Leadwerks 3, you could make such game ?

Yes, for programmers, but for less programmers like , me it would be lot more hard, and i would let down.

Could it be how to manage camera, cross hair, raycast hits collisions etc ...

 

So perhaps not complete games, but working minimal templates.

Perhaps not a tutorial, if the code would be enought commented on complicated parts.

[Daimour]

I have seen some good stuff, for instance GUI code, event code, and AI code, but I was just kind of wondering if it existing more at the design level, rather than actual implemented code.

I think, the best you could learn is experience of successful projects. Like in attachment (Q3 bots design).

[YouGroove]

this is old school stuff for programmers.

I won't post videos about concurrents ,but some engine have several advanced path finding solutions, even dynamic changing when dynamic object moves on floor.

So you just have to care about your Bot AI from easy : detect range, pursue/attack, to more complicated like is player visible , is player walk or run makes sound Bot can hear etc ...

If i just want simple AI bot : range detect/attack/follow, i just need a good pathfinding system.

 

Well lot of people won't re invent the wheell or BSP system , nowadays 3D engines just uses Navigation mesh wihtout any BSP.

It's hight level system , ready to use, you put more time on game creation, less in programming navigation or tools.

It's just my point of view as non super programmer

[MikeClarke]

Yougroove re your post, yes the FPS aspect of that game was there but as stated at the start of the video, 2 developers 1 for music, 1 for code/assets. Alot of custom code went into that project. The stock stuff avaliable on UDK obviously saves time for an fps developer but not if you want an old fashioned fps like I plan or one that comes with ADS since they just use zoom.

 

I would too like a fps "shell" but I am not expecting it lol

[steeleb]

I think, the best you could learn is experience of successful projects. Like in attachment (Q3 bots design).

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. From a software standpoint, that's exactly what I am looking for, wisdom from people that have completed a game project and know correct ways on how to implement common things, and can identify the wrong way. Not working in the industry, I only have then net. I will check out the attachment, thanks!

 

Edit: After looking at the zipped document, that is exactly what I'm talking about, thanks again.

[YouGroove]

@Steelb:

I see no interest at all in the pdf about BSP and all it contains and it's all theory for 3D artists, i doubt they will dif or even reda your document

When you want to make simple bots like for example serious sam games or some indie games where the bot just attacks and follow. If i would make tower of guns on LE3; i would simply need FPS basic template and navigation working on the level, and bots would just go after player and attack.

This post was about tutorials and templates, not core programmers work.

[Pixel Perfect]

I think yougroove wants a game he can modify.

We all do a bit of that but it can only get you so far. You have to learn coding in the end.

Cassius is right. You appear to want Josh to write the games for you so all you have to do is modify them. As people have pointed out including Josh, why would he want to do this when countless people would want different templates .. it's a no win situation! He's written an engine so people can design games themselves, not have him write them for them.

 

If you really want to write original games then learn the skills or team up with those that have them. There really is no other way! Otherwise, if all you want to do is mod games then find an existing modifiable game and add your look n feel to it. I suspect you'll find that even that involves a lot of work and technical understanding though.

 

The knowledge anyone needs is all out there and all you need to do is spend a long time and a lot of effort assimilating and perfecting it. People prepared to do that will eventually succeed, people who are not will remain Pipe Dreamers!

[YouGroove]

Yes you are right in several points.

If Lua templates will appear it will be users only to make them.

Even last script system with one script only, greatly diminue the component system

 

It's juts it was stated , there would be some "darkness" tutorial step by step, it switched to FPS, but no more tutorial.

So yes if tutorials appears it will be the community only also.

 

Let's wait LE3 to become some open system with 3DS MAX style script allowing us to customize the editor also.

(3D tiles dungeon editor, racing track editor, RPG template custom panels etc ...)

 

I don't ask anyone to make tutorials or templates, i was just asking also if it was something planned (like some has on Beta of LE for Darkness game but abandonned)

[AggrorJorn]

There already is a Suggestion for that made in the suggestion forum.

http://www.leadwerks.com/werkspace/topic/6894-option-for-empty-project-or-template/

 

Once this has been build in, I would be happy to provide the basic templates for the community in both C++ as Lua:

• FPS
  
  • camera
    
  • Weapon shooting
    
    • 1 weapon
      
    • Firing and reloading animation
      
    • Sound
      
    • Raycasting or projectiles for bullets
      

  [*]TPS camera

  [*]2.5d camera

[Rick]

Given Josh's latest comments about blurring the lines between modding and indie development YouGroove may get his wish of just modding an LE game Josh makes.

[steeleb]

@Steelb:

I see no interest at all in the pdf about BSP and all it contains and it's all theory for 3D artists, i doubt they will dif or even reda your document

When you want to make simple bots like for example serious sam games or some indie games where the bot just attacks and follow. If i would make tower of guns on LE3; i would simply need FPS basic template and navigation working on the level, and bots would just go after player and attack.

This post was about tutorials and templates, not core programmers work.

 

I'm a scientist so I always read the references. From there I got a lot of what I was looking for for instance, this site full of linky's.

 

http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/gameprog.html#design

 

For instance this article alone was really interesting.

 

http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/technical/game-programming/understanding-component-entity-systems-r3013

 

Moreover, I think leadwerks is really geared to employing those kinds of systems.