linux version

[panz3r]

I think adding linux as platform is a great news, however will linux as export platform be free or will cost extra money for existing users?

[Josh]

It will be made a part of version 3.1 if the funding target is met.

[panz3r]

Thank you.

Will the 3.1 upgrade free or will cost ? (i am sorry i am new to leadwerks and i don;t know how things works).

[Thomas]

It is likely going to be a paid upgrade.

[YouGroove]

How much ?

Too soon to tell ?

I think features and tools that will be included will make the price.

[panz3r]

Pff, paying for intra version upgardes is a bit meh. I don;t mind to chip-in a little bit to support the product (especially for linux). But if adding must-have heave features like terrain are going to cost i can only wonder how was version 3.0 better then irrlicht which is free 100%, have source code etc . I was used with the line where you pay for major version not minor version.

Don;t wan't to troll, i mostly bought the product to support it and use it sometime after it become more complete but if every minor version upgrade costs .....

[YouGroove]

Irrlicht, don't have 3D world editor and game framework or script system.

But i was surprised to see irrlicht Octopus game , even showed at E3 on PS4

[panz3r]

Irrlicht, don't have 3D world editor and game framework or script system.

But i was surprised to see irrlicht Octopus game , even showed at E3 on PS4

It is true about world editor but there is blender, about game framework i am not really sure what you mean and about scripting- lua is mixed.

Anyway, it all depends about how much will cost the upgrade. If 3.0 to 3.1 is going to be like 200 for all 3 packages i am out for sure, if is couple of movies at cinema sounds acceptable (only if linux will be included).

[beo6]

As far as I know terrain will be included in 3.0 already.

 

More important than version numbers are the actual features that will be included.

[cassius]

The time to charge for updates is when the current version is complete as an engine. version 3.0 is not a complete engine. It lacks terrain which is a basic requirement in any game engine these days.It also has bugs which means its not completely fit for purpose as yet.3.1 should be free update and THEN think of further paid updates.

[Josh]

It's been stated numerous times that terrain will be included in version 3.0.

 

If the features we are adding in 3.1 are not valuable to you then that tells me I should not bother implementing them.

[panz3r]

It's been stated numerous times that terrain will be included in version 3.0.

 

I could stop releasing minor versions.

Of course you can, is your product.

But let's be fair, only relation between leadwerks 2 and 3 is that you made both. Leadwerks 3 is a new product, not too mature and not too complete yet, that uses the leadwerks brand and was a also a bit rushed on market.

The price was fair for 3.0 assuming that at some point 3.x it will catch up with 2.x for free.

The fair thing to do is to give to 3.0 buyers a mature and complete game engine comparable to what other engines offer by 3.x free upgrades.

Milking every small upgrade will eventually alienate existing users and make them leave. (I mean look at other engines how much stuff they add inside the same version).

 

EDIT:

You can sell support to the companies that are using it professionally and this would insure a steady stream of money, while not pissing off the hobbyists.

[cassius]

I was assuming terrain was to be with version 3.1 not 3.0. I apologise for this wrong assumption.

[panz3r]

you can't add features to a version and then still call it the same version. it defeats the purpose of versioning.

it can be 3.0.1 or 3.0f but nut 3.0.

EDIT:

In my opinion without terrain, opengl4, dynamic lights and shadows/ deferred rendering

and GUI the engine is not complete. Would not hurt to improve the particles and the documentation.

Maybe I am wrong but this is what i expect for what i payed.

Linux would be fair game, would be nice to be for free but it is also fair to be for money.

 

2nd Edit:

This not should be released on steam(assuming it passes the greenlight) without terain and gui if any success is expected.

[YouGroove]

The fair thing to do is to give to 3.0 buyers a mature and complete game engine comparable to what other engines offer by 3.x free upgrades.

Terrain system , will it include grass placement and amangement also, will it be as great and complete as LE2 terrain system ?

Will terrain support shaders like Normal/spec maps ? water shaders ?

Are you sure other engines, offer such support, and such features for such price

Even Lightmapping + shaders + CSG integrated tool, dynamic shaders, same easy workflow, script only possible to make games ? you're kidding ?

As easy C++ functions to call ?

Well there is bugs, editor improvments, mobile needs lot more examples and joystick system, touch detection examples and classes, but the direction is going well.

 

Milking every small upgrade will eventually alienate existing users and make them leave. (I mean look at other engines how much stuff they add inside the same version).

LE3 is young system, it's totally different strategy than LE2 in terms of marketing , orientation.

LE3 even needs to find some directions.

It will be to us to argue for or against prices, everyone is free to use what software suits better in terms of price or features.

LE3 advantages, is good incoming advanced features without paying 1000$ or lot more for now.

 

In my opinion without terrain, opengl4, dynamic lights and shadows/ deferred rendering

and GUI the engine is not complete. Would not hurt to improve the particles and the documentation.

I agree for GUI and advanced particles.

For dynamic , you have already that shaders, and deffered is not what makes a great game, lot of great games don't use deferred.

 

Linux would be fair game, would be nice to be for free but it is also fair to be for money.

Kickstarter will bring the money, but i think people interested should pay a dedicaced license like :

- PC/Mac

- Mobile

- Linux

This not should be released on steam(assuming it passes the greenlight) without terain and gui if any success is expected.

Why not, Steam platform will always sell always last version of products.

[Furbolg]

Josh has to be careful, maybe anyone of you remember the WarZ (ScamZ) Steam debacle ?

Screenshots from LE2 to advertise LE3 can been understand as "false advertisement", i've no doubt LE3 can and will reach the quality level of LE2 but right now "as is" its not the same (graphics) quality.

[panz3r]

@YouGroove

 

Are you sure other engines, offer such support, and such features for such price

Yes, i won't name here but there are some in range 0-1500

Even Lightmapping + shaders + CSG integrated tool, dynamic shaders, same easy workflow, script only possible to make games ? you're kidding ?

Is posible to make game only in open gl, this is not the point

As easy C++ functions to call ?

Subjective.

 

Why not, Steam platform will always sell always last version of products.

Because nobody will use it without it. You think that average gamer x that buy it on steam will stay to make a gui and make terrain in blender ? Something simple is needed : game gui, a bit of terrain, a bit of lua scripting, some example project for a fps

 

 

 

EDIT:

And maybe the most important part, being a brand new product bug fixing is very important. Does it means if 3.1 appear and i don't upgrade i will have to live with those bugs ?

[YouGroove]

Yes, i won't name here but there are some in range 0-1500

Here the range is more if you target ONE product like PC : some 200-400$ range, it's a BIG difference from 1500$ or more.

 

Is posible to make game only in open gl, this is not the point

I don't understand ? will you code yourself in openGl : lightmapping, shaders, terrain tools , editor, workflow ?

Like lot of people i'm not a core programmer

I mean all LE3 offers for that price, i seen only one engine oding that or some more features, but' it's C++ and more complicated to handle, and i'm not sure it don't contain some blocking bugs in some areas ?

After that you have Ogre 3D if you are super programmer and can make your own editor and tools.

 

You think that average gamer x that buy it on steam will stay to make a gui and make terrain in blender ?

LE3 is not for total noobs, even if BSP system is present or terrain tools will come.

Even your characters you will need to import them, know what animations are, how to animate by code etc ... it's not FPS Creator.

This is not the purpose of LE3 ot become some Newbbie 3D tool all in one with a library of characters, prefabs, all scripts you would need for any game style.

 

And maybe the most important part, being a brand new product bug fixing is very important. Does it means if 3.1 appear and i don't upgrade i will have to live with those bugs ?

Like other products, upgrades have bug fixes, and old version just rest as archive.

Don't stress too much about next versions, begin a game if LE3 as enought stuff and take decisions later.

[MikeClarke]

Its not fair to compare LE3 to other engines.

 

Seriously if you go down that route then you lose every time. UDK is free... it has terrain, lightmapping, workflow, csg editor everything.... its free. No-one can compete on that level with a company the size of unreal because it's an unreal (pun intended) expectation. - Note im aware of the $99 release + 25% of over 50k but you can't buy it with the realistic thing of hitting that 50k mark as once you've hit 50k in pure profit then 25% of anything else isn't a huge concern.

 

Leadwerks is a baby engine, by which I mean it has a long road to travel. People here at the moment get to witness and shape that direction, as Josh is only going to develop in a way that progresses things for the developers using it. The more successful your game is, the more likely Josh is to tailor to your needs as your popularity increases engine popularity.

 

If you make the next great MMO, then I think Josh is likely to tailor the tools to mmo's since the million players of your game seeing the Leadwerks splash screen or logo on your game artwork will be coming here looking to replicate your mmo's success, Josh would make his money capitalizing on that traffic.

[panz3r]

Mike I agree with what you say, and i was thinking pretty much the same. Btw i wasn't thinking to udk, i don't like that model either.

All i want is a fair model. This payed intra-version upgrade is hot subject and i think will not help leadwerks on long road ( i believe there are some users who already switched because of this). Selling profesional support would be a better way to make money or maybe some feature funding like - opengl 4, we need to get 5000 to happend.

[YouGroove]

Leadwerks is a baby engine, by which I mean it has a long road to travel. People here at the moment get to witness and shape that direction, as Josh is only going to develop in a way that progresses things for the developers using it. The more successful your game is, the more likely Josh is to tailor to your needs as your popularity increases engine popularity.

 

This don't mean games always, sometimes that's more demand on platforms : mobile, Linux ...

But that brings a big point to discuss : more platforms , more bugs , more needs , more time for updates also, less time for updates and new stuff. LE2 languages diversity showed that supporting multiple ones is not easy task at all.

3D engine evolution, maintain,business is not easy task at all.

 

LE3 will need to become popular, will need real next gen game demo(s) to shine, indies people not specially programmers coming to it like we can see in some other concurrents.Dev team choosing it.

 

Enjoy as it is now and make games, we'll see how upgrades will be ,how it will cost later.

It's a goo thing having terrain in actual version.

My question is will terrain be complete , support shaders ?

Will terrain have pathfinding ?

Will GUI and GUI editor in 3.1 ?

What features will be in 3.1 exactly ?

[MikeClarke]

Platforms can only go so far, that's initial interest.

There's x number of patterns, that isn't the end of LE development.

 

Then it will be the showcase games, that will drive future progress

[panz3r]

Ok, i think pretty much the ideea i have in mind is: if i payed initially for version 3.0 i would expect to be sorted for 1-2 years with bug fixes, having the basic features in(terrain, gui), and maybe some new cool features(opengl4, deffered) .

When version 4 comes out i would expect that version 3 is stable and usable.

Although i hate to give names look at unity model . Even with version 4 out and kicking they still do support on version 3, they added dx11 in version 4 without asking for money etc.

[ZioRed]

All i want is a fair model. This payed intra-version upgrade is hot subject and i think will not help leadwerks on long road ( i believe there are some users who already switched because of this). Selling profesional support would be a better way to make money or maybe some feature funding like - opengl 4, we need to get 5000 to happend.

 

"Fair" is something very subjective, you probably wanted to say "fine for a hobbyist" and I personally think that LE should overcome hobbyist way nowadays and move towards indies (I mean not a hobbyist, but own job) if they want to survive in the mid/long run (and provide much more features than it has now to compete, last but not least GUI [possibly both visual in editor and through code] and graphics improvements). I think that as far as the upgrade price remains the same as it is now (200$ for one or one and half year) is already a fair price for indies, you cannot expect that with the current community base (may be 99% hobbyists) a company makes enough money to support, pay taxes, marketing, rentals, salaries and engine improvements with only "pay-per-support" model (how many hobbyists would pay for support? I'm also against crowd-funding at all to fund an upgrade, because I want upgrades and am more happy to pay for it being a sureness than rely on a doubtful campaign which may or may not happen to finish successfully).

 

Besides this, I got really bored to speak and listen to the current price, if the price will increase without apparent/personal reason or the new mayor version will not be worth the price for my own projects/usage then I'll just not buy it without complaining. So I'll just sit down and wait for the new release (in the mean time I think can do something with the current LE3 version, waiting for my OculusVR to be shipped [may be in 2036] ).

[beo6]

i can only agree to ZioRed.

All this speculations about the update is really getting annoying.

 

Josh said that he can't tell anything about pricing etc. until the direction is clear.

 

Unity is a bigger company and is around in the market for a lot longer.

When i start the Unity Editor it just remembers me about 3Ds-max with thousands of buttons and menus where i don't know where to start.

The Leadwerks Editor is really nice and easy to use.