panz3r Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 what speculations ? i just mentioned that i am not fine with paying intraversion, and in my opinion they should be free, especially considering that is a very young product with bugs and missing functionality. If they will cost i will simply move to something else ( i have all 3 packages so i supose every update will cost substantial). Paying for version 4.0 is totally fine and author can charge whatever he feel like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZioRed Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 what speculations ? i just mentioned that i am not fine with paying intraversion, and in my opinion they should be free, especially considering that is a very young product with bugs and missing functionality. If they will cost i will simply move to something else ( i have all 3 packages so i supose every update will cost substantial). Paying for version 4.0 is totally fine and author can charge whatever he feel like. Oh so is that the problem? Please Josh, stop talking about "3.1" and call the next "4.0" and keep minor versions for bug fixes (which is fairly and usual in versioning) so everyone is happy to pay! panz3r my friend, the bugs MUST be fixed and of course at no cost, it's not only market but the law (at least here in Italy), about what is missing I see only terrain is a must and all what you don't see in the list of features is definitely not "a missing feature" but it's simply not here so you cannot complain about something you know was not present in that list when you bought (no opengl4, no linux support, no GUI). Isn't it so? Quote ?? FRANCESCO CROCETTI ?? http://skaredcreations.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panz3r Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 Oh so is that the problem? Please Josh, stop talking about "3.1" and call the next "4.0" and keep minor versions for bug fixes (which is fairly and usual in versioning) so everyone is happy to pay! panz3r my friend, the bugs MUST be fixed and of course at no cost, it's not only market but the law (at least here in Italy), about what is missing I see only terrain is a must and all what you don't see in the list of features is definitely not "a missing feature" but it's simply not here so you cannot complain about something you know was not present in that list when you bought (no opengl4, no linux support, no GUI). Isn't it so? Fair enough, I will suck it up and not feel self entitled to those features. I don;t have any code worth of speaking yet in leadwerks so while the author figures out what is the direction i will give a spin to unity and esenthel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouGroove Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 @panz3r : You are perhaps a specific case with specific needs compared to majority ? No need to turn bad and argument with other 3D engines. I started LE3 at beginning and done like you some flame war for nothing , because like you i waned that feature or that bug fix. Threatening like that, i quit if i don't have what i want, is U S E L E S S And LE3 have marketing, strategy needs before each individual needs. I use other 3D solutions, i use LE3 as i can, if some bug stops me like i had with BSP, i just switch to other 3D solution as in LE3 i'm just prototyping before anything more serious. For update prices, we'll see, i think lot of people will be ok if terrain rules, and some improvments are in (booleans etc ...) For my case i'm not sure,i upgraded 3D coat too fast, even with their speed increase, i prefer sculptris to make the model (or Zbrush i own also) I keep 3D coat for retopo, baking, UV , paint, tiling textures, not for voxels finally, i don't feel a good touch with Voxel "touch and feel" with a tablet. And other people like a lot Voxel in 3D Coat. That's same with LE3 , if you feel well and like it more than other stuff you have , than upgrades will be ok for you. Quote Stop toying and make games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Every engine has it's problems. People engine switch all the time and then blame the engine for why they can't do something. You'll have to work around something that doesn't meet your needs in every engine you use because it's impossible to meet everyones exact requirements. It's easier to blame the engine though than to face the reality. Leaving for other reasons, like not agreeing with the company, or whatever is different though and IS a personal decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panz3r Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 I didn;t say i will leave, i just said untill the directions become more clear i will evaluate other stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouGroove Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 LE 3 even without terrain advantage actually, is that you can go full BSP if you keep level in some "simple indie way" , make some level in the "darkness" style , and have some indie playable game, perhaps even better than some thousands of indie (bad) games. It could be some RPG action, Dungon master, FPS in that simple indie way spirit. (as anyone go indie, you find lot of stuff from super bad or super newbbie to 3D to super good for skilled people) You add lightmapping supporting Normal/specular and you have a great lightmap solution for simple geometry levels. That's one among some other points that says me LE3 can shine better and allow to go faster than other 3D solutions for some little indie games Quote Stop toying and make games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panz3r Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 i think as well that leadwerks is a great engine with a lot of potential. there are some problems with the roadmap, mostly about bugfix support. If 3.1 comes and i don;t upgrade i doubt the author will backport to 3.0, and even more when there will be 3.9 there will be 8 versions to backport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouGroove Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Backport, is not mandatory for 3D engines, specially when the company is not Oracle or other thousands of people behind. Just curious what engine style do you need ? What game style ? what features ? LE 3 will shine prety good , when terrain and GUI will be here. Quote Stop toying and make games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panz3r Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 space mmo i don;t need terrain for start gui is kind of necesarry, i am too lazy to make (a good) one. I need engine to be stable and fast and if there are stability bugs to be fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeClarke Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I think something that has been raised and is fairly important is bug patching for older versions. Every version of 3.x regardless of paid or not. If a bug is fixed for a feature in an earlier version then it should be resolved for all. So some form of "generic" patch system would be a great asset and even if that took the place of actually resolving bugs for a while I don't think many could argue at the value it would bring to the tool set. It would provide a blanket of security to all licensee's regardless of whether they upgrade. Quote Operation Mosquito Recruiting 3d Modeller/Animator. (pm if interested) It is the greatest of all mistakes to do nothing because you can do only a little. Do what you can. - Sydney Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZioRed Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Backport, is not mandatory for 3D engines ehm.... this is YOUR personal feeling, the reality is not ever exactly this (don't know how much experience you have when it comes to business), mostly depends on the features and above all the timing (I mean, you cannot expect that your source code for a version 4 years old will run with today's, but neither that 2 or 3 versions or 1 year later you have to rewrite most of your code..for example). PS: I'm sorry talking ever about business, but I chose to make this as job, so I need to make points on the commercial point of views (and rewriting systems means more time and so more money you'll invest). Quote ?? FRANCESCO CROCETTI ?? http://skaredcreations.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtreampb Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Just going to throw in my 2 cents here... I personally don't agree with having to pay for the updates but that is the decision of josh and his staff. my only concern with paying for updates is this...please keep in mind that this is an example and not based on the road map or any features i have Leadwerks 3.0 and josh release 3.1 that has terrain. I don't want terrain so i don't buy it. Josh then release 3.2 that has OGL 4. I want OGL 4. Does this mean i have to buy 3.1 AND 3.2 or could i just buy 3.2. When you start selling features individually they don't really take on true versioning in my opinion because customer will pick and choose what features they want so if there are 'versions' 1-9 and i want/have versions 2, 4, and 7 then what version do i have? I'm not sure the LE3 was designed to operate this way. To allow users to pick and choose what features. It shouldn't be to hard to implement, have certain source files for certain features and your product key has the features you have bought linked to it. when you update, like you do now, only downloads what is linked to your account. Edit: Then error and bug reporting would be a nightmare. Some features would add bugs old 'versions' and trying to see what combination of what features would cause bugs and on what scale. it starts turning into the 'goto' sphegitie code of debugging. Quote bool Life() { while(death=false) { if(death==true) return death; } } I have found the secret to infinite life Did I help you out? Like my post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panz3r Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 I hope Josh will be reasonable with the upgrade price finding the balance between funding and features. From what i saw in version 2 it was around 50$ which seems ok. I backed 100 bucks on kickstarter for linux version . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouGroove Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 What i find not easy , is to pay some upgrade , some months after buying the product that is a very early not stable version even today after all bugs i met and continue to find. Usually you have new versions each year or more, that's rare to have to pay for some upgrade before one year. The best could be new ersion, one year later indeed. Paying before for some new version could it be number 3.2, 3.5 ,4 we don't care about the number, i mean paying before one year more money, indeed that's not usual with product you buy, and LE3 should have a very solid content to justify LE3 earlier buyers to pay again. Specially earlier adopters that accepted to put money on a new not prooven earlier 3D engine. For mobile ,so much stuff is missing, like GUI that is important, or simply lot of mobile stuff that don't exist : Joystick templates and GUI editor , buttons GUI editor and templates, touch templates detection (draw lines detection etc ...) Mobile is too much basic actually in terms of templates and templates detection touch device or acceleration detection, compared to what offers other 3D solutions. So for mobile i think LE3 will need one or two years before reaching such features, could they been braught by LE3 team or by users contribution, caus it's lot lot of work. It's my opinion only. I will see how LE3 evolve, how and when come some upgrade, and i'll see if i go or wait some year before making some choice. Until that i hope to see LE3 going in the right directions and decisions. Several platforms is good, but be ware it means lot more work, it will slow engine progression, like LE2 perhaps. It could had stayed with mobile and PC/Mac and just evolve as much possible in these areas with original stuff and tools , caus there is so much work and templates missing. I would say, you learn from errors and experience, like LE2 that lacked popularity, or LE3 too much big price at start, so i would say , why not ? LE3 can try some upgrade soon and any price as it wants. Only users choices to buy or not will prevalue and make the final decision. If enought people would buy for big price, why not, it would show LE3 users go that way , and others would just have to choose to follow or quit simply. I enjoy LE3 prototyping for now, it has potential, it is starting lot better than LE2 in the marketing/advert side, i hope it will go in the good directions and decisions Quote Stop toying and make games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeClarke Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I think this was mentioned elsewhere but I want to put the suggestion out there again. A LE Roadmap. Not ultra detailed but more like September 2013 - Patch containing Terrain editor - Free December 2013 - Leadwerks 3.1 - Paid May 2013 - Leadwerks 3.2 - Paid December 2014 - LE4 - Paid Just so we know what to expect as far as cost input goes, it doesn't matter whether your a company or an individual you need to be able to forecast expenditure, otherwise you find yourself in a situation where you don't have funds to the side for something you need and that could halt development - or in extreme cases end it. Quote Operation Mosquito Recruiting 3d Modeller/Animator. (pm if interested) It is the greatest of all mistakes to do nothing because you can do only a little. Do what you can. - Sydney Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AggrorJorn Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 3.1 is a paid update for sure. What comes after that is unclear. I doubt may 2013 will be the next paid update. The time between 3.0 and 3.1 is about 9 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeClarke Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 lol that was an example format, not realistic things I just mean some kind of forecast where we can see financial input. Obviously any forecast has to be flexible and expected to have some form of change as time passed but somewhere we can monitor. Quote Operation Mosquito Recruiting 3d Modeller/Animator. (pm if interested) It is the greatest of all mistakes to do nothing because you can do only a little. Do what you can. - Sydney Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AggrorJorn Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I know and I agree with you that I would be nice. But we have been requesting this for quite some time, so I wouldn't put my hopes on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZioRed Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Do you really expect Josh can have an exact roadmap from here to next year? You know what's under the hat for the next paid version ("probably" OGL4, Linux and Steam if all his campaigns will be completed successfully, and they will likely be if you consider their current status so it's more a half-sureness than a doubt) and he already stated that the mayor releases will be paid (you cannot expect to know the price earlier!), whatever else do you need? Please stop complaining about that, you know how the things work and will work for the near future, any more discussion about this topic is definitely disgusting and make me sick! oufffff you better have to concentrate to work on your game and leave these inconclusive and unuseful points. Leadwerks Corporation is definitely not PS4 or Xbox teams who make awful decisions at first and reverse back when players (thousands, millions players, not tens!) cry, I think he likely knows what people expect and definitely knows his own stuff and what is needed to survive, so please just stop whining about paid or free or "what I'll get in 2076's", if you don't like just quit and stop boring me with this discussion. All of this is definitely out of topic ("linux version", not "roadmap, paid or free"), I suggest to Josh to finally lock this topic as everything needed to say has already been told on "linux version" topic. 1 Quote ?? FRANCESCO CROCETTI ?? http://skaredcreations.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeClarke Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Zio you have completely missed my point. "Obviously any forecast has to be flexible and expected to have some form of change as time passed but somewhere we can monitor." Meaning I don't expect it to remain the same, but a location on the site, a page we can visit on a daily, weekly or monthly basis and see what Josh is thinking for the future, so we can allocate funds. I didn't specify a pricelist I said, Paid or Free. So we can say well next month's update is free we can spend this funds on the new modelling software upgrade, or in 3 months we have a paid update coming out, may as well start putting funds to the side to cover it. If this topic is boring you simply don't read it. Their is a "mark forum as read" link you can click. Everyone here, not just you is entitled to put forward their views. As for focussing on my project, I have been, I am using UDK for my larger project but I am interested in the future of LE3 and I'm monitoring it closely for other projects I have in an idea pipeline to see which engine they would be best suited to. I enjoy using LE3 as it's development workflow is very nice so if I can use it for a project I will, therefore I am interested in seeing how it grows. I'm working on the LCP2 so I have some immediate interest in where it is at but my major focus is on it's future, so my suggestion of a roadmap I can monitor would be of great assistance to my future plans. I don't think I'm the only licensee that is using the engine on the sideline and just testing it and trying various things without a current product in mind. Now I kept this a fairly relaxed response to your post, which by the way was the most disgusting post I have read on the forums. Quote Operation Mosquito Recruiting 3d Modeller/Animator. (pm if interested) It is the greatest of all mistakes to do nothing because you can do only a little. Do what you can. - Sydney Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZioRed Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Mike, I see you're around here since 3 months only, I'm here since 2010 so I read TONS of posts like yours over these years neither of which had any or most influence on the company decisions (except may be one only time about a very high price offered) and that's why I say that now it's disgusting me. It didn't mean I disgust you or your point of view or your posts, but the topic itself because I know it will not have any influence at all having tried in the past. I'm sorry if you felt offended by my post, it was definitely not my intention, I love communities and helping people (collaborated to the community C# headers for LE2, created the LE Builder software myself and gave its source to Josh and I think it was used as base for the "Project Manager" you have now, and others) and I think everyone around here knows me enough to understand that I'm almost never so rude. So if you really felt offended or insulted, please excuse me. Quote ?? FRANCESCO CROCETTI ?? http://skaredcreations.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouGroove Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 @ZioRed : You are not forced to read our exhanges if they disgust you We know LE3 is not other big 3D engine teams. You wasn't here at LE3 starting blocks with prices like 1000$ ? Well perhaps yes, we don't say you are a bad guy, but if our posts have no influence, i think LE3 actually would be sold at some 1000$ with few ueers behind ? Perhaps it had been better like that ? Can we share our point of view could their not going on a way you don't like ? For updates, for example - 3D coat i didn't have to pay afer 3 years or more - I baught Zbrush 3.5 (with 4.0 access) and i dind't pay upgrades for years until now. So LE3 upgrades arriving so quickly ... hummm .... im' not sure, and specially when you are some indie with no real game in the maings , or nothing planned to be sold indeed. why paying more if you just toy and sell anything ? If you sell games and make even casual, in that case i understand paying some bunch each 9 months or year will be ok, because you use the engine in a productive way in the goal it is made for : making and selling games (could they be good or bad) I'm actually not selling games, not completing a game, that's why actually for me it would be non sense to pay any upgrade, specially when i use other 3D solutions at same time. It would be better that way : - free patches (LE3 need lot more time to maturate could it be bugs, and editor, it's not as mature/stable and fluent as some other softs) - Pay (bigger price more if needed) , but only for Next number upgrade for LE3 V4 , like other companies are doing. I prefer to pay lot more for a complete number version indeed, but paying between i never seen that a lot in products i baught. Sometimes LE3 seems to go in some trading system way, we are not money piggies , specially people just trying to make a game and not sure to finish any game, wihtout selling anything. We paid money in Beta, and have to pay some months after , whta is going on ? are we became rich ? And the LE 3 is far from what we expected (booleans, terrain,GUI ...) Why investing more in 3D features , if you can't put them to profit and finish game ? If LE3 will have a free version, i think it will solve lot of problems : 1) You don't have a finished game : Use free limited version 2) Your game is finished, you can sell it, but you want ot add extr effects/power/features Buy the complete version of LE3 or upgrade to last one. i think this would resolve this problematic upgraede politics and prices I won't make any more lot of big post noise like that. For my case : No game finished to justify putting any more money in LE3, the best is just stay with LE3 as it is. And decide within one year or more what to do. Quote Stop toying and make games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZioRed Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 You wasn't here at LE3 starting blocks with prices like 1000$ ? It is exactly what I meant here: (except may be one only time about a very high price offered) However I'll follow your suggestion and will just ignore this kind of topic. Again, sorry for having been so rude Quote ?? FRANCESCO CROCETTI ?? http://skaredcreations.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouGroove Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Nope, you can read these topics, caus you'll see different type of users with different needs and what they expect Iindies that don't achieve a game and just prototype like me and other that are in that case : putting any more money on LE3 without having some solid game to distribute for free or to sell is not justified at all indeed. Good for you if you achieve and sell games, indeed you can't invest more money in LE3 cause it's justified in that case, and we are not in the same indie field : - You and some others making and selling - Me and some others just toying, trying to achieve a game So indeed you can't understand a lot from ou point of views It's like buying some stuff like "cake maker 1.0" to make cakes for clients : - there are people enjoying the material and trying to make cakes, but they can't achieve it or don't make them as good as they should be So they don't need to upgrade to V1.5 or 2 until they are able to make good enought cakes ready to sell with actual version. - and other people using the stuff and making super cakes they sell with it, indeed these people wil invest more money in "cake maker 1.5 or 2.0" as the use the machine in a productive way, and the income allow them to pay for better machine update. Yes i hope LE3 to split in different offers for different people : - Free or limited for people tryingto make and not selling a game yet - Pay upgrades or put a bigger price in next versions or platforms for people selling stuff made with Leadwerks 3 Quote Stop toying and make games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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