substance engine

[DudeAwesome]

http://www.allegorithmic.com/technology/substance-engine

 

superawesome to push AAA graphics straight forward into the leadwerks creation/dev pipeline by using substances.

 

its also xplattform compatible

 

just think about the cool stuff that could be created with substances like dynamic effects for the workshop.

 

would be amazing

[YouGroove]

I tested it.

1 ) Some crashes, problems, seems very beta (i'm not the only one having some serious bugs)

 

2) It relies a lot on textures also and i tried it and wasn't able to do anything good , it was complicated to figure what to do also with nodes. It can make simple actual workflow to go lot more complicated than using a painting program.

 

3) Indie means less than 10 000$ per year, something good, but not so good if you would sell a game or games :

If you would sell over 10 000$ , what you have to do ? Royalties ? or just pay a pro version ?

If you have two games using substance designer ? one using substance and another not : do you include all companie gains for the 10 000 limit ? How to proove you don't have used Substance in two other games you made

 

This is why i payed full unlimited license like Zbrush or 3D coat.

 

Anyway good for people selling no game or not gaining more than 10 000$ selling games ( like lot of individuals like me).

 

4 ) Are you sure to see what newbbies or not pro node/shaders making qualit stuff ?

Some game or level demo to see if lot of us could really use it , and be able to make themselves good textures/materials ?

 

5 ) It uses lot of specific shaders, not compatible with major indie 3D engines using diff/norma/spec standard shaders. For example Metal shader or reflective/alpha etc ...

For LE3 it will allow you to make basic textures, you won't be able to use metal , cavity and other properties ...

You will need some physically based shader 3D engine to really take maximum advantage of that program.

 

Perhaps i'm wrong , but after playing with it and seeing license, limited compatiblity with small 3D engines, it didn't convinced me at all for now.

[DudeAwesome]

I dont know know what 3d coat or zbrush has to do with a substance. how you can create dynamic materials with 3d coat or zbrush and use them in leadwerks? And what you have tested ? the engine? how oO? you are talking about the indie versions of substance software? you mix subjects here I guess.

 

 

This is why i payed full unlimited license like Zbrush or 3D coat.

 

 

commercial versions?

if yes

 

vs.

or not gaining more than 10 000$ selling games ( like lot of individuals like me).

 

 

you can use the indie version. until you generate more money. commercial versions are quite useless is you dont gain that amount of money. so I dont get the point why you tell me that you dont earn enough money but you need the unlimited (commercial stuff)

 

you won't be able to use metal , cavity and other properties ...

you will we just need pbr shaders

[YouGroove]

pbr shaders.

I doubt LE3 to adopt that before one or two years, or it will be a big surprise, so it is useless for now.

 

Could you post some amazing little level part you made using it ? something using only BSP for example to not complicate level desing ?

Well for 49$ indie version could be a good deal if you can really make something of it.

 

But about LE3 integration, indeed i would be for some LE3 integration as it is integrated in Unity 3D as plugin system, this would just bring more quality stuff to LE3 indeed and make engine more advanced.

[DudeAwesome]

I dont talk about substance designer or the software here.

 

I´m talking about an substance engine integration so we can use those tools

 

bitmap2material, substance designer, substance painter in realtime in the engine.

[Einlander]

Think demoscene Yougroove. They are using the engine to at runtime, generate the textures. There would be no texture files to load because it would be generated on the fly. It would save space on a players hdd and and band with for the developer because the texture only exists as instructions. It is completely possible for people who are familiar with image processing to do this now in leadwerks now with the Textures class.

[YouGroove]

Yeah, but i don't want half hour calculation and generation time, i'm not sure i will find some good Unity project using that method of calculation.

 

The problem with generated is that you'll have lot of textures using generic look caus generated using same patterns variation system and noise system.

Some example showing that it looks very "generated" , but indeed looks good and lot of people like me could not do better by hand

 

 

The result is variation on texture or material is very uniform, for example the rust is the same material along the 3D model on first image without variation on color or bump or details tha tcould be done by hand on some parts.

 

It will look very generic and are very uniform as even for scratches on metal as they are distributed very uniformly (from what i seen on examples) The advantage of 3D artists is to make unique tileable or unique non tilable textures without relying on calculated patterns or noise only , but this is another subject here.

 

 

Indeed it would be a very great time saviour and a great helper for programmers, not so good at texture people .

And i think some people will be smart to use the tool on another ways and break the uniform look of textures or retouch in paint program to bring unique details

And yes i would be happy to see that in Leadwerks 3.

[DudeAwesome]

Yeah, but i don't want half hour calculation and generation time, i'm not sure i will find some good Unity project using that method of calculation.

 

half hour calculation and generation time oO what are you talking about??? check the database in the browser. it takes 30 mins even in bad webGL ???

 

The problem with generated is that you'll have lot of textures using generic same patterns and noise. The result is almost same as using tiling textures on model surfaces it will look very genecric and are very uniform as even for scratches on metal they are distributed very uniformly.

 

 

hä what are you talking about? you have read one of my links in my first post? or even read my post? definetly nothing look like the same . see substances here they look all the same??? you can change everything. everything.

 

 

Indeed it would be a very great time saviour and a great helper for programmers, not so good at texture people (like me ).

 

why it would not be good for texture people? it would be great for texture people because devs and artists can work together. (and a lot faster)

 

you ever really used substance designer and know what you are talking here?

 

pbr shaders.

I doubt LE3 to adopt that before one or two years, or it will be a big surprise, so it is useless for now.

 

why it is useless. just write the shaders?

[YouGroove]

Forget Substance Engine :

• Reduce drastically the size of your game: this is for example very useful for the next gen console requirements such as PlayGo.
  
• Use the power of the dynamic texturing at real time, to provide unique visual effects in game.
  

No one is using PlayGo on PS4 for now, not sure it will be adopted.

http://www.officialplaystationmagazine.co.uk/2013/04/24/ps4s-background-downloading-installing-explained-why-next-gen-wont-waste-any-of-you-time/

 

Seems ok for real time :

 

 

hä what are you talking about? you have read one of my links in my first post? or even read my post?

Simply that textures generated by substances look very uniform is you just uses nodes and "generate button" and don't modify them by hand.

 

why it would not be good for texture people? it would be great for texture people.

That's it : great for all people and all LE3 users.

Even not integrated in Leadwerks 3, i'm sure anyone actually can produce decent textures and materials to use in Leadwerks 3, just need to buy indie license.

 

 

--------------

I agree that textures size could be very reduced using substance in Leadwerks 3.as textures are generated and combined with parameters at loading. We perhaps could reduce all textures 5Mo (1024*1024) to something very small and have very fast loading times.

 

Why is substance painter more expensive ? better ?

[Josh]

I guess my question would be how easily it can be integrated, and whether it's possible to do on a plugin basis, so the engine doesn't require it. That's the way I am likely to handle third party integration in the future. I don't necessarily want to tie my future to any third party technology, but if I give them a way to integrate I don't have to worry about it.

[DudeAwesome]

you really want to compare browser WebGL with native games? I dont have any drops btw it looks very fluid and smooth. I also dont know what the using of PlayGo have to do with this threat. playgo is just some software for the ps4 that allows background downloads. with substances you can decrease the downloaddata because you download substances and not all textures == more playtime instead of boring downloadtime.

 

 

Simply that textures generated by substances look very uniform is you just uses nodes and "generate button" and don't modify them by hand.

 

sry yougroove but you talking rubbish here. get a demo and try substance designer. you have so many filters and functions. if everything looks like the same you just saw the work from a bad artist.

 

 

 

 

I guess my question would be how easily it can be integrated, and whether it's possible to do on a plugin basis, so the engine doesn't require it. That's the way I am likely to handle third party integration in the future. I don't necessarily want to tie my future to any third party technology, but if I give them a way to integrate I don't have to worry about it.

 

yeah looks like josh is interested. this is the right question here for a dev I think you have to talk with them. I was hoping that there is some kind of "ready2use c++ libary" but its seems to be a secret how it will be implemented.

[YouGroove]

I don't necessarily want to tie my future to any third party technology, but if I give them a way to integrate I don't have to worry about it.

This means open up engine parts or plugin open system simply.

All technology that could come (and go) around LE3 will only be benefic indeed, specially good tools like this one for example.

[Josh]

Well, the way you do that is by building up the user base. Which is expanding at a good pace right now.

[Einlander]

Here us a free open source procedural texture generator that has a library that does almost the same thing as Substance Engine. Only downside is its written in java.

http://neotextureedit.sourceforge.net/usage.html

[YouGroove]

@Einlander :

Yes Java won't do it as the goal is engine integration, that means engine able to read Substance textures files and generate textures at game loading.

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

After trying Substance in the artists side for texture creation , i just found it's a nightmare of nodes to make a simple texture.

Perhaps i'm too accomoded with simple layers and 3D coat or painting programs ?

[knocks]

Been working with substance for a long time now, it would be a great addition to the engine.

[DudeAwesome]

jep SD is really nice but ok it takes some time to learn the software but it pays. for me its not just the texture size its about the dynamic textures because you can change everything in the game.

[YouGroove]

LE3 integration main gain would be reduce textures size, less for SD engine integration demand i think.

 

I'm not sure lot of people to need to change their textures in game, it's specific to some game styles.

It's different toying with tools and having a solid game project idea that would need texture changing.

 

 

You will need specific shaders instead for some texture effects and have them fast in real time.

 

 

 

 

Shaders allows advanced effects than textures and there are lot more faster.

 

 

I believe lot more in some advanced shader or high level shader editor than SD texture engine.

Im' not sure to find one AAA game using SD engine, effects i think will be shaders only in that case.

 

SD is mainly like say some industry guys, great tool to make textures faster and with some cool features, this is the main goal of that tool.

[DudeAwesome]

the rain thing is something different. with substances you can create for e.g. a toilet room with unique ceramic tiles (some are broken some are dirty, grunge effect etc) if you now like to increase the dirty level just adjust some parameters or do you dont like the tilesize and want more tiles? no problem just adjust some parameters. you dont like the color or you want rectangle tiles dynamicly created (dont forget all the maps also automaticly created like normal, spec, height, etc) everything is no problem with substances. if you always have to edit the basic texture e.g. with photoshop and have to export the maps with tools like bitmap2material it takes years. with substances you can check out different settings in a finger snip. you dont just can use shaders for everything and you dont just can use textures for everything. you need both. but you can create those dynamic water effects or snow effects with substances also. the fact that you can scale your texture resolution in realtime also makes like easier. shader coding is also not the easiest thing.

 

 

for now I have to export low and high resolution for low/high gfx settings. with substances you could import your substance and ask whats the gfx settings? its super awesome fancy ultra high? ok export the 1000k textures.

 

just think about if you have exported every texture (low, mid, high, ultra) and then you want to change something... its like "*gnarf* I have to export all those texture maps again -.-" with substances you say : "ok whats next?"

[SlipperyBrick]

In regards to changing the parameters of your texture or sbsar file you can actually animate these parameters as well. To be able to expose parameters and tweak them within the engine saves a lot of time (no jumping between programs)

 

.

 

There is just a handful of things you can do in the first video of 'What is a Substance'. Tools like Maya and Max provide a live link to Substance so if you changed something in your model then brought it back into SD then your textures will automatically be mapped to your new model (thats any changes as well, sculpting changes, retopo changes, UV changes.)

 

I hope that it is considered to have the engine able to read native Substance files because that will speed up the texturing workflow massively, Substance files are also very very lightwieght (in most cases your talking kB). So at runtime there isn't a lot of information to process because the Substance files are so small.

 

You can still use your Substances in any 3D application by exporting as bitmaps for your different channels such as diffuse, spec, normal etc. I'd just prefer to have native support for the full functionality

[YouGroove]

'. Tools like Maya and Max provide a live link to Substance

 

You know the price of these tools ?

Lot of indie just use Blender.

 

 

I hope that it is considered to have the engine able to read native Substance files because that will speed up the texturing workflow massively, Substance files are also very very lightwieght (in most cases your talking kB). So at runtime there isn't a lot of information to process because the Substance files are so small.

 

 

Not all programmers will buy substance, people just toying with LE3 , not sure also they will buy, myself for now im' not interested in it, because LE3 don't have physicale based shaders. Making SD extension to LE3 will be possible if more than some 4 or 5 people are asking it i think.

Yes LE3 will need physic shaders to be able to use SD textures like metal and others.

[DudeAwesome]

You know the price of these tools ?

Lot of indie just use Blender.

 

I dont use Blender and I would never use it. And I think I have more xp in maya than in blender.

 

 

Not all programmers will buy substance, people just toying with LE3 , not sure also they will buy, myself for now im' not interested in it, because LE3 don't have physicale based shaders. Making SD extension to LE3 will be possible if more than some 4 or 5 people are asking it i think.

Yes LE3 will need physic shaders to be able to use SD textures like metal and others.

 

We are not interested in toying and wasting time with this engine. We want to create nice stuff that is used in games. If a dev team have a choice between both things and have limited resources it will choose substances because it makes life easier and amount of money for a project smaller. Integrating substance engine requires physical based shaders but this (pbs) is self evident and something that have to be done. I also cant look into the substance engine but I believe that the shaders should be still integrated there (would be silly if not because this is what a engine is there for)

[Rastar]

No, pretty sure the shaders couldn't be used, only the textures.

[3Dski7059]

I got a copy of SD in hast and now trying to figure out how it can best be used to export textures that can be used by other engines like Leadwerks. It sounds like you'd have to work in such a way to limit outputs to diffuse,specular and normal to be used in such applications (apps that don't support the SD plugin). If you were to export from the final node, it sounds like every thing is simply baked into the a final, flat bitmap, so limiting its usefulness. In contrast, if export of these mapped textures (diffuse, specular and normal) can be exported to a single atlas, then that would be of benefit. So, I guess I'm trying to figure out what "export to a bitmap" really means from the SD perspective. Perhaps user "knocks" from an earlier post can give more word on that, since he's a long time user of SD.

 

From the proprietary SD file perspective, it sounds like the engine just to know how to give control over to an SD "plugin", and I'm not sure what that means to us as developers, especially those who own the Indie version of Leadwerks.

[YouGroove]

When you create a new substance SD proposes you to choose a template :

- standard

- physically based

As LE3 don't support Pbr (physically based rendering) you must choose the standard template.

As using LE3 you must keep the default ones channels proposed :

- diffuse

- normal

-specular

When your texture is finished you click on your graph on left window and choose : "export outputs as bitmaps"

So you will be able to export your textures (diffuse,normla,specular) of your material to use with LE3 standard shader : Diffuse-normal-specular.