Mobile plans ?

[panz3r]

I'm not in support of this idea, I just understand the situation Josh is in and realize no amount of complaining will change the fact that mobile didn't bring in the money. So what's the point? Sounds like he offered refunds if people wanted them.

 

 

[/size][/font][/color]

 

And you aren't seeing the business angle. I also think your alternatives are unreasonable given the information we now know from Josh about mobile sales. I know in your heart you believe something but until the bank can cash your heart, it's a failing business plan.

 

[/size][/font][/color]

 

1. Not sure what you mean by this? Maybe to maintain only 1 mobile platform? (guess you want Android where I would actually want iOS so now he's pissing people off still). Also, he's already stated that mobile dev takes a long time and is eating into the other, more profitable platforms. His example was specifically how Android takes longer because of all the devices to support. So this isn't a solution for the Leadwerks business.

 

2. How does this benefit Leadwerk's bottom line? Again, this takes time away from the profitable platforms.

 

3. Leadwerks is not open source. Asking a person to display their "lives work" is unreasonable. That's a personal decision.

 

 

The only real reasonable solution from a business standpoint is to do a Kickstarter for mobile and ask for enough money that would allow Josh to hire a contractor to do a lot of the debugging/testing that is going to need to be done.

 

1.I am fine with IOS even if is not my preferred choice.

2. So all that counts is how can Leadwerks benefit. How about trust and respecting customers ?

3. I think you are a bit confused. I don;t ask to make it opensource but to provide source code so we can support ousrself. Josh does provide source code if you have enough money, is on the shop. As it is not my fault that he wants to stop mobile support I don't understand why you see this option so unreasonable.

And btw my time is valuable, i recon i put at least 100 hours in leadwerks, how can this be Refunded now that Leadwerks is clearly off the table as option?

[YouGroove]

Insteda of Open source i bet lot more on plugin system and open editor or why not source of the editor to go anywhere with extensions integration and plugins all made by users only.

This is what would really bring up a lot for LE3 expandabilty and extensions , Unity shines as hell in that area , i would like fo find lot of plugins in LE3 also

[Josh]

So all that counts is how can Leadwerks benefit. How about trust and respecting customers ?

I can meet the needs of Linux and PC developers quite well. The Leadwerks workflow is really cool and different from anything else out there. The editor is getting more refined, and the engine is rapidly gaining a lot of power (on PC). I don't think I can meet the needs of mobile developers right now.

 

PC

Cost of development: Medium

Demand: High

 

Mobile

Cost of development: High

Demand: Low

 

Nothing I have seen in the last few months has given me a strong indication otherwise. I think the question came up twice on the Steam forum.

[Rick]

So all that counts is how can Leadwerks benefit. How about trust and respecting customers ?

 

Ideally a company looks to benefit while respecting and valuing customers at the same time, but you can't expect a company to sacrifice itself for the customer, so if faced with financial issues the company needs to do what it can to survive (Which often means alienating some customers. You can't please everyone.). A 1 man company is delicate and it doesn't take much for them to derail in a hurry.

 

 

 

And btw my time is valuable, i recon i put at least 100 hours in leadwerks, how can this be Refunded now that Leadwerks is clearly off the table as option?

 

This is the risk you take when dealing with any game engine. Everyone needs to evaluate a game engine more on it's features but it's business model and future.

 

 

As far as I know you could probably purchase the source still if you had the money. So that option is still there for us.

[panz3r]

I don;t know why i actually bother to argue. Is obvious that this one of the cases of you get what you pay for. My plan to save 3000 for pro licenses for unity mobile backfired on me and made me lose time and money. I guess i will just suck it up and pay unity . The porting of my project from unity pro was going quite well actually.

I am wondering how long until this thread will be closed and unfavourable posts deleted.

[YouGroove]

I guess i will just suck it up and pay unity . The porting of my project from unity pro was going quite well actually.

You have other mobile engines, not only Unity ( Shiva, NeoAxis , Jmonkey etc ... )

 

. You can't please everyone.). A 1 man company is delicate and it doesn't take much for them to derail in a hurry.

Unity have a whole team and even dedicaced people for 2D optimization, and others for 2D GUI and tools , others on mobiles , others on PC. Same for UE4 is thousand people, some do mobile, some do shaders, some do editor, others particles etc ... you can't ask as much for smaller engines.

 

 

This is the risk you take when dealing with any game engine. Everyone needs to evaluate a game engine more on it's features but it's business model and future.

That's what i learned.

You make choices, any direction take any engine, you'll have to deal with it , could it pleases you or not.

The worst was when i swicthed LE 3.0 Android to Unity Android basic : I dropped another 400$ for Unity mobile basic edition , one month after they announced and offered Android Mobile Free

 

So no need to complain, just adapt, and find what is best options when changes occurs

 

--------------------------------

 

The advantage of 3D art , it is portable almost (textures, FBX models), gameplay code can be re used, even if programming changes, the way of using collisions and physic won't change a lot.

Level world, terrain and maps are not protable, that's the bad point.

So bet a lot in some 3D engine for one project you really plan to make and with luck finish and not abandon.

For next game project, you can reconsider 3D engines again because offers, prices and market will have changed again could it be LE3 or UDK.

[panz3r]

I will draw the picture if is so hard to understand:

unity pro= 1500 , people are fine with this price and stick to unity

Unity pro+ios pro+android pro =4500 people are not so fine and look to alternatives. Leadwerks was a good deal - 600 for pc+mobile.

Because ue4 and cryengine unity will have to revise the price especially to mobile.

Now leadwerks dropping mobile , ue4 entering in scene and unity most likely having to drop prices leadwerks is not interesting anymore. Btw i don;t advocate unity or ue, just presenting facts.

All leadwerks had to do was to add gui, iron bugs, and push it to steam to be a major success. Instead ego asked deferred rendering and this killed mobile.

[YouGroove]

Leadwerks was a good deal - 600 for pc+mobile.

400$ , for 600$ i would not have baught.

 

All leadwerks had to do was to add gui, iron bugs, and push it to steam to be a major success.

It was too basic even adding GUI later :

- all tools/features/plugins not existing in LE3

- all specific mobile optimisation and shaders mobile

- large mobile range support to eb able to maintain and correct bugs

Like said , mobile is an entire 3D engine project itself alone, Unity have people that work specifically on mobile only.

All bug correction, android specific platform, phones is super time consuming.

Continue mobile and delay for one or two years PC/Linix grass, CSG tools and other features ?

 

Even LE 3.0 dropped additionnal official wrappers like BLitzmax and others, because they was just taking too much time and slowing down LE2 engine progress. It's same problem with mobile.

 

 

Seems you have not so used Unity mobile already ?

Don't tell me LE3 didn"t lack all virtual control system, extensions, Optimized one draw GUI , Visual interface and controls adjustements , easy Android install and one button publish etc ...

LE3 was far away from other mobile experience workflow and performance i had on other places ... I'm not sure bringing GUI and having some painfull to use LE3 mobile woudl has been great.

Perhaps to toy, but for effective workflow and production , LE3 was too far behind.

[panz3r]

To be fair Unity does not have out the box all that. And yes I have not done mbile development, was reserved fr later

[YouGroove]

To be fair Unity does not have out the box all that :

Indeed Ngui, and other advanced controller systems are not part of package but really cheap for what they offer.

But complete customizable virtual controls and code , optimisation, combining models , performance indeed it's Unity package.

And yes I have not done mbile development, was reserved fr later

You'll see it's totally different from LE3 in workflow production.

Simple example :

 

I am experienced with Unity mobile and tried LE3 , so i know a good bunch about the differences, LE3 workflow and features on mobile was too much behind. Now if you can stay and are happy with Leadwerks 3.0 rudimentary mobile implementation, that's another story. It would need a year to become more acceptable ... better save time and have strong LE3 engine and editor/tools for indie PC/Steam/Linux games.

[tournamentdan]

 

I can meet the needs of Linux and PC developers quite well. The Leadwerks workflow is really cool and different from anything else out there. The editor is getting more refined, and the engine is rapidly gaining a lot of power (on PC). I don't think I can meet the needs of mobile developers right now.

 

PC

Cost of development: Medium

Demand: High

 

Mobile

Cost of development: High

Demand: Low

 

Nothing I have seen in the last few months has given me a strong indication otherwise. I think the question came up twice on the Steam forum.

 

Good luck in your endeavors. I wish you nothing but success.

[Naughty Alien]

PC

Cost of development: Medium

Demand: High

 

Mobile

Cost of development: High

Demand: Low

 

..this is exactly what LE2.x folks claimed some time back, and it was refused because 'market is on mobile platforms'..pity to see such talented guy, wasting time and community on to wrong business decisions..

[AggrorJorn]

Our arguing is getting us nowhere at this moment because we don't know the exact detail of the path that is going to be walked.

 

An official statements needs to be made on the website or blog somewhere on what the plans are. Right now there are posts that contain (partially) incorrect information.

[Guppy]

..this is exactly what LE2.x folks claimed some time back, and it was refused because 'market is on mobile platforms'..pity to see such talented guy, wasting time and community on to wrong business decisions..

 

He was wrong now he is admitting as much and attempting to rectify it, why are you haunting him? I mean even R2 has been known to make mistakes... from time to time...

 

 

As a side note when I backed LE it was 50/50% wanting to attract talented indie developers to linux and creating child friendly games 3D for the OUYA in the comfort of linux. I decided to not ask for a refund because the first 50% still apply and I hope LE will be able to deliver.

 

As for the second 50% I am hoping josh will allow us to discus/share experiences with each other about engines that actually do support android/OUYA, we could each do the research our selves but would very time consuming wading through the sea of offerings

[Rick]

I'd still argue that there is a demand for mobile but like stated unless you are an LE supporter (not a huge number compared to the others) you aren't going to buy the mobile versions until your game is finished. A kickstarter for mobile would have been the way to go so at least Josh could have received the money up front or if there really wasn't enough support he would have known. The Android/Ouya stretch was hit so there was a need but because he didn't do a kickstarter for mobile only we can't compare the demand for high end PC vs mobile. There are reasons why every other game engine supports mobile.

[ESP]

I, for one, HATE the idea that mobile has died. I see my current .app user base being 90+% mobile.... Sad bunny here

[YouGroove]

What solutions if it was 3.0 and mobile :

- drop deffered or high tech mobile that needs you to catch up each time with latest features

- Pay someone to maintain and make evolve 3.0 mobile

- See how to bring minimal UI system (open source or other system)

- Keep it as separate product name and version at same time as 3.1 PC/Linux, but priority on bug fixes only , new features from time to time

- Make some mobile parts code open source ?

 

LE could have some other branch or product that would be mobile with different name : Leadwerks Mobile 1.0 Some branch totally different in technology (openGL2) and more appropriate to mass market devices independant from 3.1 could it be in platforms, updates, features.

Last point why not a free basic mobile version (with some limited features ?) and with LE logo = free advert

 

Just ideas while playing some simple 3D android indie game.

[panz3r]

Fast forward one year from now this could be (italic are edits):

I can meet the needs of Linux Windows and PC developers quite well. The Leadwerks workflow is really cool and different from anything else out there. The editor is getting more refined, and the engine is rapidly gaining a lot of power (on PC Windows). I don't think I can meet the needs of mobile Linux developers right now.

 

PC Windows

Cost of development: Medium

Demand: High

 

Mobile Linux

Cost of development: High

Demand: Low

 

Nothing I have seen in the last few months has given me a strong indication otherwise. I think the question came up twice on the Steam forum.

[Rick]

I think the difference is that the Linux demand already gave Leadwerks money in the Kickstarter where that wasn't the case for mobile. Also like we've both agreed on, for mobile you don't buy that license (mostly) until you have something already on the PC. That's not the same for Linux because there are crazy Linux fans out there that want their entire development of the game to be on Linux (which is what LE is giving them).

[panz3r]

I think the difference is that the Linux demand already gave Leadwerks money in the Kickstarter where that wasn't the case for mobile. Also like we've both agreed on, for mobile you don't buy that license (mostly) until you have something already on the PC. That's not the same for Linux because there are crazy Linux fans out there that want their entire development of the game to be on Linux (which is what LE is giving them).

The Android demand (Ouya) gave also money trough kickstarter. Josh was even visiting Ouya community.

Well I don't see why somebody would not buy only widows license and buy later linux and os.

The crazy linux fans are usually more in networking, sysadmin and less in game developing. What they want is games that run native in linux and then to compile everything from source code. Unless leadwerks become fully open source the value of native developing is only convenience and not religion.

[Rick]

The crazy linux fans are usually more in networking, sysadmin and less in game developing. What they want is games that run native in linux and then to compile everything from source code. Unless leadwerks become fully open source the value of native developing is only convenience and not religion.

 

The numbers that Josh saw would suggest otherwise.

[DerRidda]

Panz3r I ask you to stop making claims on the behalf of the entire linux community.

There's plenty of developers for just about everything on Linux including games. I know plenty of Linuxers that have developed games in the past, currently are or are planning to do so in the future. Only very few people drop hundreds of dollars into a Kickstarter just because.

 

It is also intelectually dishonest to claim that every bit of money given during the OUYA/Android strech goal phase was just for that one stretch goal. During stretch goals people still mainly give to support the core pitch, while some people are in it for the feature that this stretch goal offers and a different group of people wants to push for the stretch goals that come after which naturally means the first one has to be reached first.

 

I have already added my 2 cents about dropping mobile support in the Steam forums but overall I can emphasize with the decision.

[panz3r]

Panz3r I ask you to stop making claims on the behalf of the entire linux community.

There's plenty of developers for just about everything on Linux including games. I know plenty of Linuxers that have developed games in the past, currently are or are planning to do so in the future. Only very few people drop hundreds of dollars into a Kickstarter just because.

 

It is also intelectually dishonest to claim that every bit of money given during the OUYA/Android strech goal phase was just for that one stretch goal. During stretch goals people still mainly give to support the core pitch, while some people are in it for the feature that this stretch goal offers and a different group of people wants to push for the stretch goals that come after which naturally means the first one has to be reached first.

 

I have already added my 2 cents about dropping mobile support in the Steam forums but overall I can emphasize with the decision.

Well then you and me are in different linux comunities.The linux comunity where i am is praising open source and is tolerating close source. (Just for the reference can you point me to one of the popular/succesfully games made by the linux comunity you are refering that you know?)

Is also dishonest to claim that Ouya did not contribute with anything to the Kickstarter while Josh did PR by wisiting them and they had a strech goal. And i did put my money where my mouth is and i gaved 200 to the kickstarter for linux and i did this when the fund was bellow 10k and i had allready LW3.0+mbiles.

And BTW you got it wrong, i didn;t said linux comunity will not use , just that this CAN be a scenario next year when obviously the number of linux users will be still smaller than the number of windows users.

[DerRidda]

First of, "the community" doesn't homogeneously make games but individuals in it do. "The Windows community" (whatever that might be) doesn't develop games either and you would never make such a nonsensical statement.

 

With that in mind, the lead dev of Starbound is a Linux guy and that's actually where the game is build first before it is send to another dev for Windows and Mac compilation. Popular enough?

 

Also don't put words in my mouth I never said, I only said you can't attribute the entire stretch amount to just OUYA/Android while also admitting that some people did back the project just for that. Wilfully misunderstanding somebody's statement to undermine it makes for really bad debate.

[DudeAwesome]

wait for official news. mobile is not dead it may comes back some day. focusing on a stable xplattform engine is more important now. sure it is not nice for us but its better than a buggy engine with overload of supported platforms. forget about the past. 3.1 seems to be completly redesigned. if we have linux/mac/win support and a good engine that fit our need that will be worth it. josh dont do that to annoy us he do it to give us a stable 3.1 engine. he is not lucky with it but this is business if you dont care about little things you will fail so it does here. so make the best about it or feel free to use other engines that are the best choice for you if you really extremly need mobile support for now. josh created a nice engine here dont forget that he did all the stuff alone.