tournamentdan Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 The demand was not there because no one was ready to export a product. That is normally when you buy a export add on right? I mean we are talking about a new engine that lacks features and has performance issues. Why would a new user want to spend extra money on a add on when they are unsure about the engine or maybe even their project. I keep hearing the numbers don't match or add up. The thing about the linux numbers are, that there aren't any more left. Leadwerks for linux exhausted the potential customer base. So josh is going to see the same sales performance as the mobile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerRidda Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Such crystal balle, much fortune tell, wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Leadwerks for linux exhausted the potential customer base. So josh is going to see the same sales performance as the mobile. That's not 100% true. When 3.2 comes out it'll cost money and all those Linux people (or most) will upgrade. Pretty much all these engines have exhausted their user bases so paid upgrades or monthly charges is how they keep making money. I would actually like to see a monthly subscription for LE but I know some people don't like those. I'd rather dish out $5 - $10/mo instead of $100-$200 an upgrade. If the sub happened I wonder if allowing people to allocate their portion to certain tasks each month would be something that would work. Josh could lay out a list of features/bugs or whatever and we could all say how much we would allocate our funds too and the one that has the most money would get worked on for that month. This is sort of like a bunch of mini Kickstarters. I love thinking about alternative business models. I mean with the model above it would basically be like us hiring Josh as a consultant to make the game engine the majority want. How cool would that be 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Well, if you were paying a subscription then you wouldn't have paid your initial lump sum for the engine (in theory). So then if we all decided what Josh should work on each month then there is zero time to do bug fixes because he'd always be working on a value added task that we decided on. Bugs happen and that's just the reality of the situation. If they started to build up and enough people deemed they needed to be fixed then they would decide to allocate a month to fix them. I'm thinking in a scrum methodology where Josh would make a list of tasks and make them about a month long (3 weeks dev 1 week test). Every single month (minus vacation) we would decide the direction of the engine from our money allocation, which means there is no time for bug fixes unless we define that "sprint"/month as a bug fix. We are all paying for bug fixes or lack of features now anyway. Josh has a dev cycle that he wants to stick too. So if he doesn't get to something because he's fixing bugs then we lack features but still pay the cycle upgrades price. At least with this system the users decide what we get (Josh lays out the list), but there would be no question about what the users want. I think once all platforms are there this would work. Missing platforms hurts this because you might never get to said platform if your current user base doesn't care about it, but you don't have any representation from the unsupported platform because those users aren't using your engine because you don't support the platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tournamentdan Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 [/size][/font][/color] That's not 100% true. When 3.2 comes out it'll cost money and all those Linux people (or most) will upgrade. Pretty much all these engines have exhausted their user bases so paid upgrades or monthly charges is how they keep making money. I would actually like to see a monthly subscription for LE but I know some people don't like those. I'd rather dish out $5 - $10/mo instead of $100-$200 an upgrade. If the sub happened I wonder if allowing people to allocate their portion to certain tasks each month would be something that would work. Josh could lay out a list of features/bugs or whatever and we could all say how much we would allocate our funds too and the one that has the most money would get worked on for that month. This is sort of like a bunch of mini Kickstarters. I love thinking about alternative business models. I mean with the model above it would basically be like us hiring Josh as a consultant to make the game engine the majority want. How cool would that be Every time you mentioned "numbers" you meant new customers. Me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouGroove Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 That's not 100% true. When 3.2 comes out it'll cost money and all those Linux people (or most) will upgrade. Pretty much all these engines have exhausted their user bases so paid upgrades or monthly charges is how they keep making money. You don't exausht your user base, it is ever changing, new comers comes (specially when you advert), others leave , and yes new features means new upgrade caus new stuff is braught to you and you pay all bug fixes also. This is how lot of software buziness works. I'm thinking in a scrum methodology where Josh would make a list of tasks and make them about a month long (3 weeks dev 1 week test). Every single month (minus vacation) we would decide the direction of the engine from our money allocation, which means there is no time for bug fixes unless we define that "sprint"/month as a bug fix. Imagine people should pay to have bugs fixed, if nobody would pay you would just cumulate bugs and could not deliver even a good LE 3.2 product. This don't work like that elsewhere. For bug fixes like any software you pay Microsoft or others it's part of the job, bug are fixed when found, and must be fixed as bugs are non expected behaviour of software or technical problems. For features, i like the ability to deicide what features would be next, but again this is means some vote system, not all people could agree. Quote Stop toying and make games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tournamentdan Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Such crystal balle, much fortune tell, wow. I was right about Y2K, Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston breaking up, and the housing bubble. So yeah. I'm pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Imagine people should pay to have bugs fixed, if nobody would pay you would just cumulate bugs and could not deliver even a good LE 3.2 product. That's the best part about the system. When the bug list gets big do you think nobody would allocate a sprint for bug fixes? Of course they would. Also, you are paying for bug fixes in any software. If it took people's time to do something then it's inside the cost of the software. Do you think companies are just nice and give you free working hours? Just because it's not a list item on the bill doesn't mean you aren't paying for it. Don't be naive. bug are fixed when found, and must be fixed as bugs are non expected behaviour of software or technical problems. Are LE bugs fixed when they are found right now? No they aren't. Some bugs have been around for a long time. At least this new way would allow the majority to rule when the bugs are out of control and to allocate their money to take care of them. At least this way bugs would get a good solid amount of attention and Josh isn't scrambling to try and catch up to something he said he's do 6 month ago and we feel like bug fixes are rushed and sometimes don't get fixed when he thinks they are fixed. For features, i like the ability to deicide what features would be next, but again this is means some vote system, not all people could agree. It doesn't matter if everyone agrees. The majority agrees and so the majority are happy, which is a good thing. Your sprint may not win 1 month but may win in another month. So you feel happy and understand that it's a fair system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughty Alien Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Bugs are something considered broken, non functioning, therefore, why would you pay for something what suppose to work properly? Payed upgrade of system is ok, but paying for fixing something broken?? Also, I believe Linux userbase is significantly smaller than mobile user base, and im afraid LE author will learn that hard way. It should be done what was le2.x community requiring a year plus ago, and now will be a lead dog on the particular field.. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Bugs are something considered broken, non functioning, therefore, why would you pay for something what suppose to work properly? Payed upgrade of system is ok, but paying for fixing something broken?? Have you ever played an MMO? That's basically what they are doing lol It's hard to tell Josh that when it sounds like Linux has made him many times more money than mobile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tournamentdan Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 It's hard to tell Josh that when it sounds like Linux has made him many times more money than mobile. Think of how much money he is going to loose when people are ready to export their game. Betting on a steam console to me is risky. I honestly think it will end up like ouya. Their might be room if Nintendo has to bow out. But who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tournamentdan Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 When it comes down to it. Less people finish a game than start one. I think this is what convinced the other engines to go to a subscription. A lot of people were downloading their "free" engine but only a few finished games for them to make royalties off of. Maybe the best way for josh is to do a subscription also, but add the export add ons as features to help entice more people to subscribe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamecreator Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 An upfront payment with no royalties is a strong selling point. And I doubt Leadwerks is ready to lose more users with yet another drastic change. If people want to pay monthly and pay royalties, they have that option. If they don't, they can come here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 @gamecreator you seemed to have added royalties into the mix here. I think most agree that's a bad idea. So then $100 every 10 months or so or $10/mo. Might be a cool idea to give an option like Unity. Note that I don't ever think Josh will do this but it's fun to think about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppy Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 An upfront payment with no royalties is a strong selling point. And I doubt Leadwerks is ready to lose more users with yet another drastic change. If people want to pay monthly and pay royalties, they have that option. If they don't, they can come here. The "no royalties" bit we can agree on, I don't think the upfront bit is all that important tbh - especially if the product has a 1 year cycle Quote System: Linux Mint 17 ( = Ubuntu 14.04 with cinnamon desktop ) Ubuntu 14.04, AMD HD 6850, i5 2500k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouGroove Posted April 4, 2014 Author Share Posted April 4, 2014 Some monthly payment, would be possible only when LE3 will get complete and more optimized. The day you'll get astonisehd by LE3 : gorgeous graphics, effects, vegetation and terrain, water, all BSP tools , great frame rate, some more tools, then yes it's price could go up line Unity Pro but more cheaper and then why not a monthly subscription like UE4. UE4 is lot of bugs , alpha stage but as advanced tools , features and redering monthly subscription works. Quote Stop toying and make games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panz3r Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Some monthly payment, would be possible only when LE3 will get complete and more optimized. The day you'll get astonisehd by LE3 : gorgeous graphics, effects, vegetation and terrain, water, all BSP tools , great frame rate, some more tools, then yes it's price could go up line Unity Pro but more cheaper and then why not a monthly subscription like UE4. UE4 is lot of bugs , alpha stage but as advanced tools , features and redering monthly subscription works. For UE4 you can pay once 18 and stop subscription and can still use it legally . Only downside you will not be able get updates. Main problem with ue4 is royalties and the extra work they generate for an accountant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Doing monthly tasks that we vote on would mean monthly updates, which is why a subscription would work well for an engine that isn't 100% established, from the engines standpoint. It means more people will keep the subscription to get the frequent features/bug fixes. Then it comes down to the bug fixes which I still think some of you have your head in the sand view on. I mean CryEngine and UE4 are going to be doing bug fixes as well and people are paying monthly for those. My idea is the same thing payment wise (the net result is the same), but it gives the majority of users more control over what they want that month. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 I keep hearing the numbers don't match or add up. The thing about the linux numbers are, that there aren't any more left. Leadwerks for linux exhausted the potential customer base. So josh is going to see the same sales performance as the mobile. I would be very surprised if that was the case. The Kickstarter campaign was selling an idea for a product that didn't exist yet. There's still a lot of Linux users left to convert. I don't have any plans for a paid upgrade any time soon. We're gaining a lot of new users pretty quickly, so I am very satisfied with that. 1 Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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